Roatan Trip Report

[Doc]

The trail/road does get muddy after a rain, but so does the main street (which is about 1/3 paved and soon will be completely paved).

You have learned to speak "Bay Islands". Your use of the word "soon" is masterful.

We were scheduled to dive on the afternoon we arrived and the entire week with a dive center and we were wanting to do the shark dive. Our first dive was on Monday afternoon the day we arrived.

A lot of folks want to dive the day they arrive. Many people agree that this is a bad idea due to the inherent dehydration of air travel.

.... a dive master didn't give my wife enough weight, and he liked to go slow so the group was going to go slow.

You wife has to "take" the weight. Dive Masters can not be relied upon to "give" you weight. Doing the perfunctory self-administered in-water weighting test is a requirement and would obviate this issue.

Basically because he was the "Dive Master" we were going to do it his way, not the paying customers way....and he liked to go slow so the group was going to go slow.

Yes, that's the way it works. Check out many previous threads here and you'll find that going slow is the advisable naturalist method. The DM sets the pace, if you wish to stay with him (which, in the Naturalist angle, is advisable). CoCoLobo runs a number of cruise ship divers through their boats, so the DMs are pretty well loaded for bear.

Never expect any specific act or service from any professional in SCUBA unless you have made specific agreements and understandings before chartering.

As soon as we submerged she was having trouble descending. I stopped to take a few pictures....About five minutes later while she was trying to go deeper he grabbed her again and screamed at her underwater to stay calm. I could tell he was also trying to tell her to breath out to descend. After this I stopped taking pictures and stayed at her side. We were about ten feet above everyone else in the group because she couldn't descend.

Staying with a distressed buddy and skipping the pix is a good idea. Make a note to skip taking the camera on the first dive of the week, if not for yourself, then do it in case you have to assist your buddy. Once a diver achieves the desirable state of neutral buoyancy, being forced into "staying ten feet above" doesn't occur.

He came back over to her again, grabbed her spun her to face him and screamed at her underwater again. Then he spun her around and put a weight on her the BC tank strap. She finally was able to descend without a problem.

I personally slip the weight into the diver's BC. The only reason to go through the process to put a weight on a tank strap is that she needed a "keel weight" or an advanced form of a weight distribution issue~ not only common in females but something the attuned DM can see easily. I have never heard anyone manage to communicate effectively u/w by whispering, but due to her (and yours by osmosis) already distressed situation, her perception was understandably so.

.... a fifteen year old girl in our group having trouble with her regulator ..... Fortunately she was able to fix the problem.

When a fifteen year old girl can fix a regulator problem, that's a very cool thing~ or it wasn't much of a problem.

Things were fine for a little while until my wife had to start struggling to stay at the current depth. He came back over again, and again grabbed her spun her towards him and screamed at her underwater again. I noticed at this point the weight was no longer on the strap around the tank (hence her problem staying and struggle to stay with the group) he put a weight on the tank again acted like it was her fault.

Fault is hard to convey underwater. Okay, so anyway, he produced another few pound of lead right there out of the blue as her tank became more buoyant. Did her buddy double check the knot this time around?

We tried to do the shark dive while there, but were unable to. Aparently the people that schedule it are real flaky. You can not schedule it yourself, you have to do it through the dive shop. Our dive shop kept trying to schedule it for us, but kept getting the run around. Another couple we met diving with another shop had the same problem (I wonder if the save openings for the bigger dive shop/resorts on the island and fill in from the smaller operations if needed?).

You can always make your own reservations. The shop you are using can do this for you as well since they like to hire out their company van to transport you. Due to the very good possibility of extreme currents in the Shark dive site (due to the approaching storm, Ernesto), possibly the dive shop looked at buoyancy challenges that would present and made a decision in that way. The Shark dive is a relatively easy dive, but there is absolutely no window for assistance or gear adjustments when the currents are stiff.

Next time I will be sure to exchange in to local currency before we go and I will take a lot of small bills. Nobody ever has change!!!! According to a few locals this is a common problem. If you pull US money out of the ATM's they will dispense $50 bills.

That's another oft discussed topic here, but you'll also learn that changing for Lempiras is also a bad idea for the casual weeklong visitor. Take maybe $200 broken into $1, $5 and a very few $10. The rest in $20, skip the $50, and only enough $100 to pay off larger bills. Always clean, un-torn notes.

Even after an initial rough ride, I'm glad that you saw through the obstacles and will consider a return trip. I looked at your previous posts and see that your dive buddy is very new to salt water diving, so the notes that she has made in her log book regarding pounds of lead will make the most of this a non-issue in the future.

 

[ssroseberry]

Roatanman,

For time's sake I left some details out.. I also don't know how to do the cool quote thingy when replying.

"A lot of folks want to dive the day they arrive. Many people agree that this is a bad idea due to the inherent dehydration of air travel."

Dehydration wasn't the/a problem, but thank you for the suggestion.

"You wife has to "take" the weight. Dive Masters can not be relied upon to "give" you weight. Doing the perfunctory self-administered in-water weighting test is a requirement and would obviate this issue."

My wife was wearing a 2 mil shorty for the first time in saltwater so she was taking the dive masters advise because of his experience. We don't live anywhere near saltwater so testing weight in saltwater before going on a trip was impossible. He took extra weights with him in the event he didn't give her enough weight. He also didn't want to take the time to test her weight before submerging.

"Yes, that's the way it works. Check out many previous threads here and you'll find that going slow is the advisable naturalist method. The DM sets the pace, if you wish to stay with him (which, in the Naturalist angle, is advisable). CoCoLobo runs a number of cruise ship divers through their boats, so the DMs are pretty well loaded for bear.

Never expect any specific act or service from any professional in SCUBA unless you have made specific agreements and understandings before chartering."


I have been diving for 21 years in many different places; although this was the first time in Roatan, I have never had a dive master tell me that "we are going to go slow because I like to go slow." And call me crazy, but I did expect a certain minimum service from any professional in SCUBA. I have learned my lesson however.

I want to make clear to anyone reading this that Cocolobo is a lodging and is in no way associated with a dive shop. I purposely didn't mention the dive shop's name or the dive master. I will pubically give praise, but privately criticize.


" Staying with a distressed buddy and skipping the pix is a good idea. Make a note to skip taking the camera on the first dive of the week, if not for yourself, then do it in case you have to assist your buddy. Once a diver achieves the desirable state of neutral buoyancy, being forced into "staying ten feet above" doesn't occur."

When I stated my wife my wife was having trouble descending I should have been a little more clear. She was having to "swim" to descend and stay at the same depth as everyone else. This was obvious to me, but the dive master for some reason mistook it for something else. My wife never showed signs of "distress." Distress insuates there was a life threatening situation. There was never a life threatening situation.

"I personally slip the weight into the diver's BC. The only reason to go through the process to put a weight on a tank strap is that she needed a "keel weight" or an advanced form of a weight distribution issue~ not only common in females but something the attuned DM can see easily. I have never heard anyone manage to communicate effectively u/w by whispering, but due to her (and yours by osmosis) already distressed situation, her perception was understandably so."

Personally I would have put the weight in the BC also. I also would have showed it to her so she knew what I was doing. I can not explain his actions, but he never showed her his intentions. He just grabbed her by the BC and spun her around. He didn't braid the weight through the strap, he just put the strap through one eye of the weight. As far as communicating underwater, I have never seen any one effectively communicate orally either by screaming or whispering and this is the first time I have ever seen a dive master do this. Trust me, this didn't cause distress, it caused indignation.

"When a fifteen year old girl can fix a regulator problem, that's a very cool thing~ or it wasn't much of a problem."

My point about the fifteen year old is that he never noticed her. A good dive master should be scanning all of his divers, not fixated on just one. And yes it is good that she fixed the problem on her own. I also failed to mention, her dive buddy (her mother) never noticed either and was about twenty feet away from her most of the dive. The dive master never told them to stay together like he did us, and we were never more than ten feet apart. There were a total of six divers on this dive by the way.

"Fault is hard to convey underwater. Okay, so anyway, he produced another few pound of lead right there out of the blue as her tank became more buoyant. Did her buddy double check the knot this time around?"

There was no knot. And yes I did keep an eye on the weight the rest of the dive. I never said it was his fault the first weight fell off her tank strap nor her fault. It is a bad place to put a weight as we have already discussed. And if you want to use the term "distress" at this point in the dive is a good time to use it. Let me take you under water and keep grabbing you by the BC and spinning you around. It wont take long before I cause you distress by doing this. This is no way for a dive master to act underwater unless there is an actual life threatening emergency, and at that point you had better be planning an ascent to the surface.

"You can always make your own reservations. The shop you are using can do this for you as well since they like to hire out their company van to transport you. Due to the very good possibility of extreme currents in the Shark dive site (due to the approaching storm, Ernesto), possibly the dive shop looked at buoyancy challenges that would present and made a decision in that way. The Shark dive is a relatively easy dive, but there is absolutely no window for assistance or gear adjustments when the currents are stiff."

To my knowledge and research there is only one place on Roatan doing the shark dive and it goes out of the south side of the island. They do not take direct bookings Book a Shark Dive in Roatan it has to be done by a dive shop on the island. There are many great reviews about the shark dive and the dive shop we ended up using said many great things about the dive.

I never finished my dive master certification years ago, life happened and my career path changed. So I do know that Yes a dive masters first and foremost concern is the safety of his divers. BUT, this is also a service industry! If somebody likes to get paid to be a dive master they must remember to keep the customers satisfaction in mind also. Treating somebody like this dive master did is not ok. It was humiliating and didn't need to happen like it did. In hindsight, could my actions have been different? Yes they could have, but I guarantee one thing, I will never let another dive master treat my wife like that again.


I appreciate your constructive criticism it is always welcome.

 

[Mike]

Staying with a distressed buddy and skipping the pix is a good idea. Make a note to skip taking the camera on the first dive of the week, if not for yourself, then do it in case you have to assist your buddy. Once a diver achieves the desirable state of neutral buoyancy, being forced into "staying ten feet above" doesn't occur.
.

Totally agree. According to all the DAN research, 80% of dive accidents occur on the 1st dive of a vacation divers planned dive series. If the sh*ts going to hit the fan, it's highly likely going to occur on the first dive.

As for a dive master who wants to go slow - in my book he's worth his weight in gold.

Give me a dive master who understands the slower you go the more you will see instead of the more typical marching onward and upward dive master who I'm constantly losing sight of because he's chasing after a French Angel or yet another turtle, while I'm looking at the sea horse I found by going slow. It's been my experience that the more experienced the dive master the slower he will go on a dive in places like Roatan, Bonaire or Cozumel where you aren't going to see big stuff everywhere and it's about slowing down, enjoying the dive and using your eyes to explore what's in front of you. I can't tell you the number of dive masters who I've kindly asked to slow down on the next dive if possible.

 

[drrich2]

My point about the fifteen year old is that he never noticed her. A good dive master should be scanning all of his divers, not fixated on just one.

I never finished my dive master certification years ago, life happened and my career path changed. So I do know that Yes a dive masters first and foremost concern is the safety of his divers. BUT, this is also a service industry!

This point is worth following up because I see 2 polarized viewpoints on the forum, and while I don't think we're going to see universal agreement, since the issue at hand is judging the conduct of a dive professional, it bears pointing out.

The issue is whether a Dive Guide (which is what the 'herd leaders' are in Caribbean charter boat tourist group dives) may in fact be Dive Masters, but can be Instructors, and for that matter I imagine could be neither. They're often called 'Dive Masters.'

If we're going to judge this man's conduct, we need to consider the 'standard of care' he is due you as a customer.

Some people believe such guides are just that; guides. They are familiar with the local reef, and so can take you on a led tour, handling the navigation so you can focus on enjoying the view, maybe point out some animals you might've missed (especially if they know where morays hang out, etc...). But you are there as a certified OW diver, not a student, so it's not a student/teacher role and they have no obligation to act as scuba nannies - watching to make sure you don't go too deep, wander off, are keeping up with your air supply, etc...

Some people believe such guides as custodians of the divers they lead. Out of deference to the fact many divers are occasional vacation divers of marginal competence who haven't dove lately and are new to the area and are used to professionals taking care of them, some think the guide is indeed responsible for their safety and to monitor them closely; frequently visually checking on each customer, watching their approximate depth, signaling them to signal their PSI remaining, etc... In other words, 'dive nannies.'

Some with the former view have a really disparaging view of the latter view & the state of dive training & widespread OW diver competence today, which can lead to hijacking threads to push viewpoints.

Many people probably practice somewhere in between. It varies a lot by region. A coastal California charter boat might haul you out to a site with colder water & worse viz., and not provide a dive guide at all. In the Caribbean, it seems dive guides are the usual practice.

I'm not posting to defend or condemn the guide in this instance, just to point out there's no universally agreed standard as to what he's responsible to do for you. Just because someone has a Dive Master or Instructor credential doesn't mean he's acting in that capacity when he acts as a dive guide, so his 'professional' responsibilities may differ.

Richard.

 

[dmoore19]

I am not a big party animal. I am getting older and 3 maybe 4 dives a day takes it out of me so I am ready for sleepy night time by 9 or so. The schedule at AKR suits me fine. On both of our trips we made it to West End for an afternoon, not a lot there but it is kind of fun. The first trip we had an earlier flight and didn't dive the friday before we left. AKR ran a bus over to the zip line. It is fun going over to Bailey's Key to see the dolphins and they offer horseback rides and kayaks if you want to play around in the water. Seems like plenty to do for me.

 

[vcblklion]

And what else was around AKR? Except the few places along the road in Sandy Bay - the nearest "anything" is in the West End. And we both agree it's 10minutes by cab away - farther than I'd want to walk. And we did the drive 6x so I'm likely more familiar with it. Google earth puts it at about 2.5 miles from AKR's main entrance to the road into the center of the West End. I don't really consider that near - especially when walking along the side of the road in sweltering humidity.

I'll stand by my comment.

There's a forest preserve directly across the street....We went hiking there for about an hour....it was magnificent. Dude you said there wasn't anything "near"...what do you consider "anything"?? West End is all bars and restaurants and they are all right next to each other..once you are there you can walk...you consider a 10 minute cab ride inconvenient? Ok...I get it...you can't afford the cab....you should have qualified that you were traveling on a budget....my bad...

 

[ssroseberry]

I like your view points and agree that there are different thoughts on this. I especially agree with your comparison of destinations. I have learned that different destinations have different requirements/expectations. I have been to places that never even ask for a C-Card and I have been to places that want to see a C-Card and a log book. In my opinion, every dive shop should look at the log book and C-Card. This would, more likely show a divers experience level.

As far as "standard of care" in my opinion, on a recreational dive, the dive master is there as a custodian and to watch out for an emergency or a distressed diver. If the novice diver needs extra help it is their responsibility to inform the shop/dive master before the dive. I also strongly believe that while you are underwater on a "recreational dive" it is not the time to try to teach a buoyancy lesson. If, as the dive master, you noticed a problem and corrected it with weights. Talk about it after you surface, not by trying to scream at the client underwater.

As I said before, this was my first time to experience something like this. I did not talk about my expectations before hand because of my years of good experiences on dives. I will, in the future, discuss all expectations before diving. As Roatanman said never expect anything unless it is stated beforehand. I hope others may learn to ask about expectations before having a bad dive.

 

[RTBDiver]

I do not know abut the yelling and things but for the most part it seems you are bothered by something that is your wifes fault or the fault of her OW instructor. When she was certified she should at that point been able to plan and execute her dives without an instructor or divemaster, If these skills were lost due to lack of diving it is still not up to the DM to teach people. If someone needs extra help with basic dives, bouyancy, and the such then they really should be paying an instructor and not putting the burdon on the DM or the rest in the group. You mention trouble descending BUT she WAS underwater, The first few feet are the hardest, then things compress,, doesn't seem to make sens. I seldom dive around a divemaster and most certainly would have little if any expectations as to what to expect from them, Now this one wanting to go very slow would be a big plus, whats the hurry? Seems the lesser experienced want to get in , swim as fast as they can , get the dive over with and get out.

 

[CajunDiva]

I'm not posting to defend or condemn the guide in this instance, just to point out there's no universally agreed standard as to what he's responsible to do for you. Just because someone has a Dive Master or Instructor credential doesn't mean he's acting in that capacity when he acts as a dive guide, so his 'professional' responsibilities may differ.

Richard.

I agree with Richard on this one. There are going to be two different viewpoints. Yes, one would expect more of a customer service oriented attitude in this situation, so from that standpoint I definitely see a problem. At the same time, having traveled extensively and sampled many different dive operations, I have learned some important lessons.

First of all, I never entrust my dive safety to any individual...except myself. I am thoroughly prepared, know my gear well, listen intently to the dive briefing and trust my buddy. If issues occur during the dive, we are equipped to handle them. If there is a dive guide present, I expect him to GUIDE the dive...not look after me. I am much more interested in what he can show me than what he can do for me. While some people may expect more, I don't believe it is the responsibility of the dive guide to look after your safety...unless he is an instructor who is there to teach you something.

That being said, if a dive master ever puts his hands on me and spins me around, he better be prepared for a fight I think the OP showed great restraint in his reaction. But that's just me...

We prefer the AI route because we enjoy diving on the same boat with the same crew every day. By doing this we have formed some dear friendships along the way. We have also met many dive masters on the island of Roatan and they have all been superb. The dive staff at Fantasy Island, CocoView, Media Luna, Anthony's Key and Turquoise Bay are excellent. (Those are the ones I have personal experience with) I would recommend that you go back to Roatan and try one of those places. You'll have a MUCH better experience Don't let the actions of one individual turn you away from an island that has so much amazing diving to offer.

 

[RTBDiver]

That being said, if a dive master ever puts his hands on me and spins me around, he better be prepared for a fight I think the OP showed great restraint in his reaction. But that's just me...
.

But remembeer, we are talking about a diver that should not have been in the water unless as a student and one who had no idea about bouyancy control yet they sighned on for a dive as if they were qualified and expected special treatment