Richie Kohler accused of looting

[cdiver2]

Here lies the basic disagreement. Caves and wrecks are very different animals. The proposition that a wreck can be "preserved" or "conserved" for future generations of divers just doesn't wash. Those of us who've been diving the same wrecks from whole structure to rubble pile know that it isn't a matter of "get it before someone else does" - it is a matter of "get it before Neptune does" or it's gone forever. And once the collapse begins it proceeds with remarkable swiftness, reminiscent of the "Wonderful One-Hoss Shay."
The second most preposterous premise used by archeologists is that artifacts must be left for the professionals to recover and preserve properly "when funding and manpower become available." That will happen shortly after Hell freezes over, centuries after the last artifact is a mixture of assorted salts disolved in the ocean.
--
As for reefed ships, and other ships with "no historical value," their value is as reef material, and there's really no reason to "salvage" anything off them... and I say leave 'em alone.
Rick

a purely technical point and not including loss of life (war or not), if the vessel was insured then I would think the insurance Co owns the wreck, they paid out on it. So regardless of what our view is on "should anyone be able to take things as its going to be lost anyway" it is not for them to make that decision.

 

[Rick Murchison]

a purely technical point and not including loss of life (war or not), if the vessel was insured then I would think the insurance Co owns the wreck, they paid out on it. So regardless of what our view is on "should anyone be able to take things as its going to be lost anyway" it is not for them to make that decision.

We could take off on a whole new tangent about "ownership" and "abandonment" concepts in maritime law... "ownership" establishment does bring in the "permission" (or even hired salvage) aspect and trumps issues we've been discussing. However, when it's our own government just declaring blanket ownership and restrictions then we do still have a voice - at least for the time being - and it remains worthy of discussion.

Rick

 

[Spratman]

Thanks, Rick! Even though you stole my thunder. It wasn't to cast a disparaging light on Richie, or anyone that dove with him. Or the Gary Gentile's of the world. It was the fact that this Ronbeau character, who claims to be a marine archeologist with 20 years experience, is a nobody trying to become a somebody. He has written no books, no papers, nada, zip, zilch.

I see this in the same manner of the Stellwagon Banks issue, where NOAA is trying to put it off-limits to everyone. Your second point is spot on. There is no way in hell that NOAA will EVER have to people, the resources, etc, to survey and catalogue all the ships on the bottom. Their approach to things is that they would rather see them rust into oblivion than someone have a porthole on their mantel. This is the same stupid logic of tree huggers that would rather see deer starve to death than have the herd culled and put them out of their misery. There are far more capable wreck divers who have done a tremendous amount of research and claimed a bell or compass or whatever ,for their labor. AND they have no Piled Higher and Deeper.

I think someone here made a different point regarding what Rick is saying. Fresh water wrecks are a different animal altogether. Because of the cold and lack of deterioration, I can see the argument that these ships shouldn't be ravaged. They will be around a longer amount of time in the same pristine condition for others to enjoy.

 

[cdiver2]

We could take off on a whole new tangent about "ownership" and "abandonment" concepts in maritime law... "ownership" establishment does bring in the "permission" (or even hired salvage) aspect and trumps issues we've been discussing. However, when it's our own government just declaring blanket ownership and restrictions then we do still have a voice - at least for the time being - and it remains worthy of discussion.

Rick

I think I have to agree with DA Aquamaster on this one. As I see it the bottom line is, no purpose is served outside of the individual when parts of wrecks go into someones basement (and I am an old wrecker).

Yes wrecks do decay but I have had some great dives on wrecks from the 1800's where the only immediately recognizable thing was a mast. But there was tons of other stuff if you bothered to look in the cracks and gully's (two hundred years later). That wreck gave me and many more divers a lot of memorable dives, and still doe's to this day.

 

[LVX]

I worked at wreck that sank in 1685. We found 1.5 million (yes, million) artifacts. This was in salt water off the Texas Coast. Lot's of those artifacts are now in a museum in Austin, Texas where many people will get a chance to see them instead of the few if it went into someone's basement...

Layne

 

[Zieg]

I think I have to agree with DA Aquamaster on this one. As I see it the bottom line is, no purpose is served outside of the individual when parts of wrecks go into someones basement (and I am an old wrecker).

I worked at wreck that sank in 1685. We found 1.5 million (yes, million) artifacts. This was in salt water off the Texas Coast. Lot's of those artifacts are now in a museum in Austin, Texas where many people will get a chance to see them instead of the few if it went into someone's basement...

Now some are argueing basement vs. museum angle. So for arguments sake, besides the knowledge obtained from some of the artifacts, How many of these artifacts are on display in some museum.

You stated 1.5 million artifacts, Are all these artifacts from this one shipwreck on display or are a majority of them locked up in the basement of the museum? I know that scholars have access to these treasures, but not the average person.

 

[cdiver2]

Thanks, Rick! Even though you stole my thunder. It wasn't to cast a disparaging light on Richie, or anyone that dove with him. Or the Gary Gentile's of the world. It was the fact that this Ronbeau character, who claims to be a marine archeologist with 20 years experience, is a nobody trying to become a somebody. He has written no books, no papers, nada, zip, zilch.

I see this in the same manner of the Stellwagon Banks issue, where NOAA is trying to put it off-limits to everyone. Your second point is spot on. There is no way in hell that NOAA will EVER have to people, the resources, etc, to survey and catalogue all the ships on the bottom. Their approach to things is that they would rather see them rust into oblivion than someone have a porthole on their mantel. This is the same stupid logic of tree huggers that would rather see deer starve to death than have the herd culled and put them out of their misery. There are far more capable wreck divers who have done a tremendous amount of research and claimed a bell or compass or whatever ,for their labor. AND they have no Piled Higher and Deeper.

I think someone here made a different point regarding what Rick is saying. Fresh water wrecks are a different animal altogether. Because of the cold and lack of deterioration, I can see the argument that these ships shouldn't be ravaged. They will be around a longer amount of time in the same pristine condition for others to enjoy.

metal other than steel Iron? they will be there for a lot longer. As I said in my previous post divers are seeing these things two hundred years later. I dived this site about 30 times in the early 70's, I read that the ships bell was found in 1991. It also brings a lot of income to the small village near the wreck site.

Now if the bell had been put on display say in the village's local water front bar for all to see, diver and non diver and hear the story of the sinking (a interesting one) then I would have no problems with that. The wreck is on the doorstep and the story go's on for a lot of years to come.

 

[cdiver2]

Now some are argueing basement vs. museum angle. So for arguments sake, besides the knowledge obtained from some of the artifacts, How many of these artifacts are on display in some museum.

You stated 1.5 million artifacts, Are all these artifacts from this one shipwreck on display or are a majority of them locked up in the basement of the museum? I know that scholars have access to these treasures, but not the average person.

How many people are going to see RK"s ships telegraph.

 

[LVX]

You stated 1.5 million artifacts, Are all these artifacts from this one shipwreck on display or are a majority of them locked up in the basement of the museum? I know that scholars have access to these treasures, but not the average person.

Yes, all artifacts came from this same shipwreck.

No, some are still being conserved, and many,many others have been sent to smaller museums along the Texas coast. And, before you ask, not all artifacts will ever be displayed. There are thousands of ballast stones that will never see the light of day. Out of those found probably 50-75% will go into permanent museums while others will go into traveling exhibits. Still others will be avaliable for researchers...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"You need balls of steel to be a tech diver"

I imagine that would reduce the amount of lead on your weight belt, eh? ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)