Restricting Diving on NE Shipwrecks?

[Sean222]

I do not have the exact wording that I recieved from NOAA in front of me, but it was very similar to: to protect and preserve a historic resource.

I guess their idea of preserving a wooden shipwreck is to merely let it soak in salt water 200-400 feet deep.

In having several experiences with the Archaeological Community(some pleasant and some dripping with hostility). I can tell you that ones that have the ear of the politicians believe that there is no such thing as a non Historic wreck. Their opinion
is that just because something is not Historic today, doesn't mean that something about it won't be discovered in the future that would make it historic.
On another note, there is already a buffer zone that was created by the CRMC
in Newport Harbor to protect the alleged wrecksite of HMB Endeavour.

 

[wreckedinri]

So if we as a wreck diving community cannot man up enough to police ourselves, I think we can expect to be regulated by someone else. Knowing that we either need to start self regulating or stop whining when someone else inevitably does it to us.

Whining

Sorry that you feel that way about posting information.

Please permit me to whine . . . er. . uh-mm . . .provide more information. Currently there are definitive rules and regulations in place regarding diving on the wrecks within the Stellwagen Bank National Marine Sanctuary. I am paraphrasing here, so please don't crucify me if I get the wording wrong or neglect to mention something.

There is to be no anchoring, grappling or tying into any shipwreck.
No part of the wreck is to be disturbed.
Nothing is to be moved, nor removed from on or around the site.

Those are the basics as I understand them. At the present time there are no restrictions regarding who or when divers can dive these sites.

In essence it is strictly a look but don't touch policy, which is absolutely fine with everyone that I personally know and/or have spoken to. It's merely a question of public access.

What if the "powers that be" decided to shut down diving on the wrecks in the Great Lakes and the Seaway for the sake of protecting the resource. . . would that be worth whining about?

 

[crlavoie]

Sadly, we have watched this exact same scenario play out in the rock climbing / mountaineering community over the last 20+ years and it has ONLY gotten worse as time marches on. The only thing the access restrictions have succeeded in, is splintering the community in such a way that there is no single, unified voice to represent the rights and concerns of the overall user group.

Restricted use permits ultimately mean that ONLY those with most "resources" (read:money) and connections will be able to access these sites. Here's a prime example: New Guide Services Slated for Mount Rainier | GreatOutdoors.com

It's worth noting here that Lou Whittaker (founder of RMG) was befriended by the Kennedy family in 1963 and personally guided Bobby Kennedy to the top of an otherwise nameless peak to be renamed for the late JFK.... 2 years later, voila! Ranier Mountain Guides is born and has a 30 year guiding monopoly on the mountain.

RMG is the most widely known example but it's carried out all over the country in places like Yosemite, Denali, The Tetons, The Shawangunks, Red Rocks and many others. The end result is that it puts these kinds of places off limits to all but a select few.

As divers, I have to think this affects that vast majority of us as we would require commercial support in the form of a "charter" to get to these places. As these regulations evolve (and they WILL) they will ultimately limit our choices.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... If you ever run for office ...

I'd rather clean bilges.
Rick

 

[Oyster Diver]

Sadly, we have watched this exact same scenario play out in the rock climbing / mountaineering community over the last 20+ years and it has ONLY gotten worse as time marches on. The only thing the access restrictions have succeeded in, is splintering the community in such a way that there is no single, unified voice to represent the rights and concerns of the overall user group.

Restricted use permits ultimately mean that ONLY those with most "resources" (read:money) and connections will be able to access these sites. Here's a prime example: New Guide Services Slated for Mount Rainier | GreatOutdoors.com

It's worth noting here that Lou Whittaker (founder of RMG) was befriended by the Kennedy family in 1963 and personally guided Bobby Kennedy to the top of an otherwise nameless peak to be renamed for the late JFK.... 2 years later, voila! Ranier Mountain Guides is born and has a 30 year guiding monopoly on the mountain.

RMG is the most widely known example but it's carried out all over the country in places like Yosemite, Denali, The Tetons, The Shawangunks, Red Rocks and many others. The end result is that it puts these kinds of places off limits to all but a select few.

As divers, I have to think this affects that vast majority of us as we would require commercial support in the form of a "charter" to get to these places. As these regulations evolve (and they WILL) they will ultimately limit our choices.

The B-29 in Lake Mead is a SCUBA related example. The B-29 was found around 2002 by private individuals, but the NPS immedietely claimed ownership and halted all public diving on the plane. It took the NPS until last year to issue limited permits to two dive operators to conduct guided tours of the plane. The cost for two dives last year was around $450-500 just for the charter. You can add your gear and lodging on top of that. I was completely priced out of doing this dive last year before the permits expired, but according to the NPS this qualifies as open to the public. The NPS hasn't issued new permits for this year, but one of last years guides is expecting to be granted a new permit. Net result seems to be, if you have lots of $$$ you can dive it, otherwise you are out of luck.

 

[ageddiver]

Hey sorry I haven't seen this thread but I've been off line for a few days. I am one of two diving representatives on the Stellwagen Advisory Council and attended the "kick-off" meeting of the plan on Tuesday of this week. First off, the plan itself really has no teeth (or even points of contention) at this time as it simply lists the goals of the sanctuary and the actions suggested to achieve them. However, the actions suggested can certainly be turned against the dive community depending on how they're enacted. Permits can be issued like hiking permits or can be round-filed for no reason and without recourse. The trouble is we don't know how they are planning to interpret these actions (what their intentions are). This was the first meeting at which divers were represented on the council.
The only known facts are these: the sanctuary has been assigned the task of protecting the wrecks while providing "compatable use", they have no money earmarked to do it, and they've had a few bad experiences with divers pilfering at other sanctuaries in the past. My initial impression is that they feel it's simply easier and cheaper to regulate divers out than to let them in. NOAA does have a history of doing this in the past (Monitor). But that said they don't want to cut off their nose, and divers can go places and do things they cannot for very little coin and they would love to have that information.
The Stellwagen management was accommodating at the meeting and offered to meet with us (the diving reps) later in May and prior to the public comment meetings in June and discuss the individual proposed actions and offer their interpretations. We are waiting to schedule a date, and will at least be able to be more specific on plans to the dive community at that time. I will also keep an open mind until that meeting.
I do feel the dive community can police itself to a large extent, and the great lakes and florida caves are good examples.
We'll hopefully know more later in the month, and will be updating the dive community so you will all have the opportunity to comment during the open period which ends August 6. More later...

Bob Foster

 

[wreckedinri]

Bob,

Thank you for taking the time and providing us with the facts and information as known to you.

Dennis

 

[Rick Murchison]

... I will also keep an open mind ...

Check six, Bob. They are not your friends.
"Trust but verify."
Rick

 

[jamiep3]

Probably openning myself up to gunfire here, but I have been diving the preserve in Lake Champlain for the last 4 or 5 summers. They have placed moorings about 50' off of the wrecks, with guidelines to lead you in. You are allowed to look, but not take. No penetration is allowed, however with the wrecks in the preserve this is not a huge issue.

This can be done in a way that benifits most people. Of course it begs the question if the goverment can do it without screwing up.

 

[ScubaSarus]

Can I ask; is there a nearly 100% understanding we should not be taking items from the wrecks and do we all obey that understanding.

Its hard to resist not taking a small item if its laying about but if everyone did that..........