Reply from Viking re: Oriskany ripoff

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Spectre:
Let's step back a bit. This was an artificial reef. A ship prepared for sinking by pulling off a good amount of material that went to recycling bins and dumpsters. Quite a bit of bare wires hang all over the place where "interesting" things were removed prior to sinking, for all different reasons.

Leaving aside the arguments about the legality of the action, let me ask one question. Does the fact that things were removed from the ship prior to sinking bother you? If not, then why does when it was removed get a burr under everyone's ***?

Seriously. Go dive the wreck. Look at all the gaping holes where gauges and other stuff were removed prior to sinking. Then come back and tell me that this is a big deal, that the dive sucked because there was 100,002 missing items instead of the 100,000 that was missing when she went down.

As stated before, artificial or not, it is still a reef, and removal of any interesting bits means there is less of interest left for others to enjoy. You may justify yours or others desire to strip her any way you want if it makes you feel better, but IMAO it is still an act of selfishness. The parts stripped before sinking were removed for enviromental, safety and other concerns by the legitimate owner. After it was sunk it was meant to be enjoyed by all, not just those who 'got there first' so the only way I am OK with attempts to salvage it is you get a signed permission slip from anyone and everyone who might have an interest in diving the wreck, which you won't get, because I am interested and I wouldn't sign. Sink your own wreck and you can strip it to your hearts content.
 
Spectre:
Leaving aside the arguments about the legality of the action, let me ask one question. Does the fact that things were removed from the ship prior to sinking bother you? If not, then why does when it was removed get a burr under everyone's ***?

I'll answer this. It bothers me because at the time it was put into a publicly accessible place, it was put there, in that condition, for everyone. Not just for whoever got there first, to do as they please to it. By vandalizing it, individuals are changing it based upon their own personal whims (and whatever tools they have handy). That may sound morally naive, but, since you're comfortable with leaving aside legal issues, you may feel free to leave aside moral arguments as well.
 
I find it interesting that most of the "anti" people are in landlocked states and most of the "pro" (or don't really care, like me) are on ocean bordering states. Perhaps some of you don't really understand what happens to wrecks or how fast it happens?
 
PhilEllis:
I have followed this thread very closely and am amazed at the interest in this issue. I am not going to defend the Captain or the individual that took the panel from the "O". I don't know either of them. But a little restraint is due here.

As a shop that is somewhat "local" to this wreck, I have an interest different from many. To some degree, it is an economic interest. I expect I will eventually offer group trips to dive the wreck. So clearly, I probably have an economic interest.

It is fairly clear to me that taking artifacts from this wreck is illegal. It is fairly clear to me that the individual who took the artifacts "backed" into a crime of his own commission, a crime based on an activity that is applauded by many, that is the envy of thousands when done on other wreck, and an activity about which several books have been written. It is fairly clear to me that the Captain is either directly, or indirectly, involved in this "crime" and is deserving of some admonishment.

When the first news of the potential sinking of this wreck became local news, one of the concerns was the lack of dive boats in the Pensacola area to take recreational divers (who represent about 95% of all those that will ever dive the wreck) to the site. There is some fear that the absolute bottom depth of this dive site might cause the insurance companies who insure the recreational boats going to this site to make an exclusion preventing insured trips. Pensacola, for all of its great attractions and great resources, have never been a gigantic "diving" attraction like Panama City. This is for many reasons. Hotels aren't located close to the marinas. Lodging is expensive. The number of "shop" owned boats are limited. This makes air fills and cylinder rentals difficult for larger "group" trips. Many things make Pensacola less "group trip friendly" as to diving. Group trips are essential to the long term viability of any dive operation on the pan handle coast.

This thread has clearly caught the Captain in question quite off guard. He probably participated in an activity not realizing the uproar it would cause. He was then called on the carpet by an entire, large community. The internet has a tremendous power. In fact, many people make their living on the internet. I am one of those. But the internet also has a somewhat dangerous power. It can serve to "swamp" an individual or organization in a way that makes a defense impossible.

The Captain in question is like a deer caught in the headlights of an on-coming car. He doesn't quickly realize what is coming toward him. As a result, he freezes and does all of the wrong things. As I personally read the Captain's responses here, it is clear that for all of the many wonderful traits he probably possesses, written articulation is not one of them. His responses are rather ham-handed. They do him more harm than good. This captain probably runs a fairly good charter boat operation. He satisfies a lot of people and provides a service they like. Like any merchant, he does things that does not satisfy some. We need to be careful not to continue to batter this individual for his mistake. It is likely that we are approaching the point where it may become impossible for him to continue to operate. The local dive stores may be reluctant to channel customers to him because of the potential for bad publicity. Like many in the scuba diving industry of late, he may get disgusted with this whole business and simply throw his hands up. This certainly will not benefit divers. After all, there remains a shortage of dive boat operations in the Pensacola area. I doubt if it will help if the area loses one.

Before we continue to debate what WE think should happen to this Captain because of how WE view his actions and his operation, lets remember that he is a small merchant, trying to make a living. Does he make mistakes? You bet. We all do. I don't understand how further bashing this individual over this mistake helps anyone, except for those that simply want to be heard on the internet.

And please don't respond to me pointing out the law, the restrictions on this particular wreck, its status as a war memorial, or any of the other GOOD reasons why divers should leave this wreck alone. I am smart enough to have read all of the comments already made about these issues. You don't need to tell me again.

Why don't we leave the guy alone and let him think about his actions and change the way he operates. Sometimes, when someone is caught with the "hand in the cookie jar", a little time and space allows the person to self-correct. That usually works quite well. If it doesn't, we can come back in a couple of months and start another thread bashing him. Let's not continue to beat the horse at this time. Anyway, my opinion. Thanks.

Phil Ellis

At this point, I have to agree with Phil. This subject has been discussed backwards, forwards, and sideways and no additional good can come from continuing IMO.
 
Oregon wasn't land-locked last time I was there :wink:
 
Soggy:
I have to ask, Nad....Do you actually dive wrecks in the ocean very often?

Not as often as I'd like, and very little penetration, as I do not have the training for any serious penetration. But I have dove a few here and there in Gulf and Caribbean and my policy when diving them is same as when diving a reef or anywhere else, 'take only pictures, leave only bubbles' so that future divers can also enjoy what I have.
 
NadMat:
You may justify yours or others desire to strip her any way you want if it makes you feel better, but IMAO it is still an act of selfishness.

When did I express a desire to take anything from the ship? I thought I was very clear in expressing that it's a pile of junk with nothing worth the effort of bringing up.

The parts stripped before sinking were removed for enviromental, safety and other concerns by the legitimate owner.

... no, the parts striped before the sinking were removed to appease the EPA. I guarantee that the legitimate owner wouldn't have removed a lot of that stuff if the EPA didn't get involved.

The only way to completely clean that wreck would be to cut her into sections and completely shred her apart. That was stated directly by the man in charge of the whole project. They removed what they needed to in order to get EPA approval.
 
Soggy:
I find it interesting that most of the "anti" people are in landlocked states and most of the "pro" (or don't really care, like me) are on ocean bordering states. Perhaps some of you don't really understand what happens to wrecks or how fast it happens?

Ok, more justification on your part, 'we live next to the water, so we can do what we want in it'. And Texas is not exactly land locked, more land and coastline than any of your NE states. It is also on the Gulf, while you are not, so shouldn't my thoughts on this be of more import than yours on the subject by your logic?
 
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