Rental Truck Vandalized

[dfx]

How does that make the problem disappear? How long does it take a thief to steal something out of a truck? Way less than an hour else you'd be catching them after your dive. So thief watches site, sees patrol car go by, and knows he has an hour to do a 5 minute job. Crime remains the same, poor security guards never see it.

Actually we did see some people from the park driving up and down the road along the dive sites. Not sure what their purpose was, quite possibly something completely different, but yeah I agree that this wouldn't or doesn't deter thieves at all.

 

[mikeycanuk]

This has to to hurting tourism. While waiting in CZM for our flight home we stuck up a conversation with a fellow diver and the subject of where to go next came up. Bonaire was mentioned but we both knew of the crime issue there. If 2 random Canadians are writing Bonaire off, how many others are of like mind? Undercurrent also posts on the issue as well.

 

[Mike]

It would also take at least $2 per person just to break even with the cost of collecting the tax, without paying security guards

Do you really think there would be a physical person standing at the airport collecting the two dollars, taking it to the bank every night, another person who stands in line at the bank on Fridays and takes the two dollars out and hands it to a security guard to pay him??? I think all the infrastructure is already in place and it's an existing accounting system that distributes the money electronically. Wow!

But, yes, it agreed, this is an impossible task, there is no way to ever decrease the petty crime of stealing from rental vehicles in Bonaire, it's one of the great mysteries of the world in the modern age. Hopefully the thieves don't read scubaboard and realize this and increase their activity since it's clear there is no way to effect it and they are basically free to do anything they want.

---------- Post added April 22nd, 2014 at 07:30 AM ----------

How does that make the problem disappear? How long does it take a thief to steal something out of a truck? Way less than an hour else you'd be catching them after your dive. So thief watches site, sees patrol car go by, and knows he has an hour to do a 5 minute job. Crime remains the same, poor security guards never see it.

You really don't understand how crime and justice or a civilized society functions do you? You don't actually prevent crime from a police officer being stationed every 2 square feet all over the planet, you create a deterrent to crime by increasing the chances of a criminal being caught in the act or prosecuted after the crime has been committed, and the removal of the criminal from society and being able to commit more crimes. Police are reactionary to a crime, they show up after the crime takes place rarely before or during, law enforcements job is to work hand-in-hand with the justice system to deter crime by making sure criminals are caught and prosecuted, rarely is that going to happen before a crime takes place. The problem on Bonaire is the lack of the deterrent. Criminals know that the police rarely if ever patrol the dive sites, they also know that the authorities on Bonaire don't place any emphasis on investigation and prosecution of the petty crime to divers.

 

[T.C.]

Agreed, this is an impossible task, there is no way to ever decrease the petty crime of stealing from rental vehicles in Bonaire.

Exactly. So why get all worked about it, and proposing new police?

You really don't understand how crime and justice or a civilized society functions do you? You don't actually prevent crime from a police officer being stationed every 2 square feet all over the planet, you create a deterrent to crime by increasing the chances of a criminal being caught in the act or prosecuted after the crime has been committed. Police are reactionary to a crime, they show up after the crime takes place rarely before or during.

No. Crime is not a function of police presence or deterrence. It is a function of the economic status and culture.

You contradict yourself. You say that police are a deterrent, but then that they don't prevent crime. A deterrent, by definition, prevents crime.

So which is it?

Your ideas will not not create a deterrent. It is far too easy to place a lookout in the road with a phone. There is limited access and a cop cannot deter if they don't patrol. But if they are limited in their patrol routes the deterrence effect is negligible. Bonaire's narrow single coastal road prevents any deterrent effect.

Trust me, I fought this same scenario for two years. It's tough to beat innocent spotters. And you can't use our spotter counter tactics to counter daytime petty crime.

This has to to hurting tourism.

It's not. Tourism continues to increase on Bonaire. The low crime rate does deter many people. Especially when compared to other place in the world.


Which means and we need more reports of crime and drama to keep it the ideal remote island.

 

[djtimmy77]

Considering its proximity to Caracas, it is amazing crime isn't worse.

How about this, go to Trinidad on your next dive vacation. Let us know how that goes.

 

[salth2owannabe]

---------- Post added April 22nd, 2014 at 07:30 AM ---------

You really don't understand how crime and justice or a civilized society functions do you? You don't actually prevent crime from a police officer being stationed every 2 square feet all over the planet, you create a deterrent to crime by increasing the chances of a criminal being caught in the act or prosecuted after the crime has been committed. Police are reactionary to a crime, they show up after the crime takes place rarely before or during.

I've tried to ignore this post but it's like and accident, you just have to keep looking back to see the wreckage.

Yes and no Mike - Yes I know money, Man power, time .... But these types of petty theft are not that hard to address. Mike is right in that it's all about risk -return. Right now there is very little risk or getting caught or any follow up prosecution. Having a uniformed officer in a marked car does very little for this type of crime, except maybe make the criminal wait a few more minutes as the marked unit stops or drives by before they go through the vehicle. Proactive policing in these types of crimes is really relatively simple (not necessarily easy or cheap). A few plain clothed officers in a rental truck, a couple of remote cameras and "tagged" bait items left in the vehicles. After you catch a couple of them and prosecute them accordingly the word spreads real quick on a small island. When the risk starts to outweigh the return they find something else to do. Nope, you aren't going to stop all of it, we don't stop all of it in the States either. But in most instances the risk outweighs the reward.

No - I'm not a "Bonaire basher" , I rather enjoy the place and am looking forward to going back. My rental is already booked. Like many have said, it's more of an inconvenience to me. It's a frustrating inconvenience because it could be addressed instead of just "accepting" it at the level it's at. For those that choose not to go because the inconvenience is a concern or not worth it, that's fine too.

 

[Mike]

Exactly. So why get all worked about it, and proposing new police?


No. Crime is not a function of police presence or deterrence. It is a function of the economic status and culture.

You contradict yourself. You say that police are a deterrent, but then that they don't prevent crime. A deterrent, by definition, prevents crime.

So which is it?

Your ideas will not not create a deterrent. It is far too easy to place a lookout in the road with a phone. There is limited access and a cop cannot deter if they don't patrol. But if they are limited in their patrol routes the deterrence effect is negligible. Bonaire's narrow single coastal road prevents any deterrent effect.

Trust me, I fought this same scenario for two years. It's tough to beat innocent spotters. And you can't use our spotter counter tactics to counter daytime petty crime.


It's not. Tourism continues to increase on Bonaire. The low crime rate does deter many people. Especially when compared to other place in the world.


Which means and we need more reports of crime and drama to keep it the ideal remote island.

I don't know you, but I guarantee that you're active or ex-military, my money would be ex-military. The "there would be no criminals if there were no un-locked foot lockers", military dogma is extremely evident in your mentality and comes across loud and clear. Thanks for playing. The civilian world actually does have solutions.

 

[nimoh]

Do you really think there would be a physical person standing at the airport collecting the two dollars, taking it to the bank every night, another person who stands in line at the bank on Fridays and takes the two dollars out and hands it to a security guard to pay him??? I think all the infrastructure is already in place and it's an existing accounting system that distributes the money electronically. Wow!

No, I don't think that at all, and not sure where I gave you the impression that I did.

I meant costs for things like if the airport is going to collect the tax, I'm sure they would want to be paid for the effort, and the accountants would also want a piece of the pie.

I realize you can easily pick apart my examples, and I'm not really interested in defending them. My point is just that your tax idea seems a little to easy when boiled down to collecting money to pay to guards and give them a truck.

 

[PeterNBiddle]

You really don't understand how crime and justice or a civilized society functions do you? You don't actually prevent crime from a police officer being stationed every 2 square feet all over the planet, you create a deterrent to crime by increasing the chances of a criminal being caught in the act or prosecuted after the crime has been committed, and the removal of the criminal from society and being able to commit more crimes. Police are reactionary to a crime, they show up after the crime takes place rarely before or during, law enforcements job is to work hand-in-hand with the justice system to deter crime by making sure criminals are caught and prosecuted, rarely is that going to happen before a crime takes place. The problem on Bonaire is the lack of the deterrent. Criminals know that the police rarely if ever patrol the dive sites, they also know that the authorities on Bonaire don't place any emphasis on investigation and prosecution of the petty crime to divers.

Science has thus far failed to definitively prove there's a single way to reduce crime. For example we in the US are in our 3rd or 4th decade of an overall decade-over-decade reduction in murders. Awesome! But this is true in places that skew strongly liberal as well as those that skew strongly conservative and those places have obvious divergent approaches to crime prevention. Everybody tries to take credit for the reduction.

There is apocryphal evidence (as experienced by yours truly and strongly supported by the police I've personally spoken with) that the rise of meth in the US produced an increase in petty theft. Meth heads aren't logical so the existing deterrence doesn't automatically deter them. Nor does any reasonable increase - here in WA state we have strong support for gun rights and ownership and established rights to shoot people to defend property - but that doesn't seem to affect car break-ins or burglaries. (Or does it? Who knows?)

The "more better prosecution and punishment" view of crime prevention is a classically conservative perspective. It may work in some cases but it clearly does not work in all. The legalization of marijuana in WA and CO hasn't increased crime in those states. The legalization of prostitution hasn't made parts of NV more dangerous - it has decreased crime.

This is a paper on three crime-prevention archetypes: http://www.popcenter.org/library/crimeprevention/volume_05/05_White.pdf it's interesting as at least a way to classify theories.

I rather like your proposed idea of a crime-reduction fee. I think it would work and it needn't be state run - the mob knows how to do this. Just license people a large, serial-numbered crime-prevention license (for, say, $10 per trip). Leave it on the dash and make sure all the locals know what it's there for and that it's a protection racket.

A few knocked heads coupled with the orderly re-distribution of money from tourists into the criminal community and the disorganized local hoodlums will remember you don't mess with cars with the special thingy on the dash because (as Guido the pimp says) "you don't f&$k with another mans livelihood".

 

[salth2owannabe]

There is apocryphal evidence (as experienced by yours truly and strongly supported by the police I've personally spoken with) that the rise of meth in the US produced an increase in petty theft. Meth heads aren't logical so the existing deterrence doesn't automatically deter them. Nor does any reasonable increase - here in WA state we have strong support for gun rights and ownership and established rights to shoot people to defend property - but that doesn't seem to affect car break-ins or burglaries. (Or does it? Who knows?)

The "more better prosecution and punishment" view of crime prevention is a classically conservative perspective. It may work in some cases but it clearly does not work in all. The legalization of marijuana in WA and CO hasn't increased crime in those states. The legalization of prostitution hasn't made parts of NV more dangerous - it has decreased crime.

Interesting perspectives

If you want to find out if the deterrent is effective remove the deterrent.

The legalization of what is deemed a "crime" elsewhere doesn't decrease crime it just redistributes it and changes it's form. The examples you give are perfect examples of that.