Removing items from the USS Oriskany (interesting dilemma)

[Oriskany Divemaster]

I've been thinking about this for 24 hours now, and I think Rich Smeggy is on to something, so I'm packing my bag and hitting the road on sort of a National Treasure Scavenger Hunt/Home Decorating Adventure.

First on the list is the Flag over the Iwo Jima statue so I can fly it in my front yard. It's not like it's the original one.

But with that nice flag my lawn is going to look pale. So I'm grabbing backhoe and going to the White House. They have such a nice lawn and besides, it'll grow back.

After I resod with the new Blue Fescue, I think I'll save a nice chunk and put it on my mantle next to the Moon Rock I managed to grab during my visit with NASA.

Third, I'm thinking an ear, or maybe just part of one from those guys at MT. Rushmore. I'll need chisel for that. I think it would make a nice birdbath if I turned it just right.

Finally, I'm going to shoot an American Bison in Yellowstone and stuff him. I'll put him in my living room where he should be just tall enough to position him so it looks like he's eating the grass off the mantle.

So thanks for diving with me, but a higher calling calls and thanks to "Captain" Tim, I know which tools to use to get the phone.

 

[tracy_from_oz]

Maybe the mighty O is a national treasure as it is a living embodiment of your, the United States of Americas, history.

People see it or learn its history and discover it is a living piece of your nations past that is a small part of the jig saw for a country that has fought for democracy. It symbolises freedom and the values of life, long after she was decommissioned.

Ok just foreigners opinion there.

 

[Allison Finch]

Maybe the mighty O is a national treasure as it is a living embodiment of your, the United States of Americas, history.

People see it or learn its history and discover it is a living piece of your nations past that is a small part of the jig saw for a country that has fought for democracy. It symbolises freedom and the values of life, long after she was decommissioned.

Ok just foreigners opinion there.

That's very nice......Thank you.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

There is no need for that crap. That is just someone that only thinks of themselves. Scumbags. (unless it was something really cool. then it's OK)
Just kidding!!!!!

I had one diver coming up with a hatch bolt from a wreck we dive on. He got to go down again and fasten it if he wanted to come with us in the boat. It was snowing that day... He went down again!

 

[bradshsi]

I've been thinking about this for 24 hours now, and I think Rich Smeggy is on to something, so I'm packing my bag and hitting the road on sort of a National Treasure Scavenger Hunt/Home Decorating Adventure.

A few of points.

Personally I think the divers actions in taking items from the wreck was wrong at the very least in a moral sense.

International law renders anything more than 24 miles offshore international waters (with the exception of the 200 mile EEZ which covers natural resources). So if the vessel was sunk outside of that (and from what I've read it was sunk just on the 24 mile limit), legally the state or federal government has no say over what happens to it with the exception of the caveat noted below.

However there is an exception in international law for sunken warships. In short the US government retains title to the vessel except:

The practice of States confirms the well-established rule of international law that title to such vessels and aircraft is lost only by capture or surrender during battle (before sinking), by international agreement, or by an express act of abandonment, gift or sale by the sovereign in accordance with relevant principles of international law and the law of the flag State governing the abandonment of government property.


Now the thing that is unclear to me is whether by purposely sinking the Oriskany the US government abandoned it's title claim. However if the US government did not, then the following paragraph makes the legality of salvage quite clear:


Except for opposing belligerents while hostilities continue, no person or State may salvage or attempt to salvage sunken state vessels or aircraft, or their associated artifacts, wherever located, without the express permission of the sovereign flag State, whether or not a war grave.

 

[solodiver in nj]

I am slamming the mentality that hacksawing, chiseling, and stealing off wrecks is Ok. This mentality seems to be widely supported in the Northeast. If the shoe doesn't fit... I was BORN in NJ, so don't go there.

Anything support information to backup that statement... Didn't think so!

Just because you were born in New Jersey, doesn't mean you understand the culture.

The shoe definitely does not fit, however I cannot stand to read someone spew B.S. about the place I live and grew up.
Mark

 

[Rick Murchison]

So if the vessel was sunk outside of that (and from what I've read it was sunk just on the 24 mile limit), legally the state or federal government has no say over what happens to it

Couple of points...
Oriskany is about 22 miles from Pensacola pass; she's about 17 miles off the beach.
The "salvageability" of any wreck is tied to who owns it, and whether it has been "abandoned" - regardless of whose waters it happens to lie in, so nitpicking the location w/r/t jurisdiction for other purposes is irrelevant. The fact is that Florida has not "abandoned" Oriskany, is still the owner, is actively protecting it and is perfectly in the right of prosecuting anyone who takes anything other than what the state says can be taken.
Again, comparing artificial reefs to actual wrecks is a red herring. The owner of an object doesn't relinquish ownership - or rights - just by placing it on the bottom of the sea on purpose... the object must also be "abandoned." And to "abandon" something the owner pretty much has to either state that it's been abandoned, or make no attempt to protect or recover it for *years*.
Taking stuff off real wrecks may or may not be legal, depending on the wreck's status.
Taking stuff off Oriskany is just simple thievery.
Rick

 

[PerroneFord]

Anything support information to backup that statement... Didn't think so!

Just because you were born in New Jersey, doesn't mean you understand the culture.

The shoe definitely does not fit, however I cannot stand to read someone spew B.S. about the place I live and grew up.
Mark

There is a nice piece here:

http://www.njscuba.net/artifacts/misc_salvage_law.html


I guess these guys secure salvage rights:

http://seahunter.org/2006TripReports1.html


I *LOVE this report on some NE Wreckers coming to FL to cave dive
(part 1, "Leave your hammers at home")
http://www.northernatlanticdive.com/cave-report-03.htm

Stripping our gear was quite interesting. Since you do not need hammers, chisels, crow bars, lift bags, jersey reels and argon bottles in caves, lets say our equipment lightened up quite a bit.

Look, I'm not picking on these specific examples. Nor am I trying to say that ALL NE Wreck divers are looters and pillagers. Some of the most important maritime finds have happened there. There are a large number of divers in the NE who properly preserve these valuables, or donate them. My problem is with those who take items of historical value and just stuff them in their living room for bragging rights.

I don't think it's right, and you are certainly welcome to disagree. But the tolerance for that behavior seems to be far less here in the south, or at least in Florida, and I am glad about that.

 

[bradshsi]

Oriskany is about 22 miles from Pensacola pass; she's about 17 miles off the beach.

Taking stuff off real wrecks may or may not be legal, depending on the wreck's status.
Taking stuff off Oriskany is just simple thievery.
Rick

Sounds like a good summary to me.

 

[Guba]

Thanks, Rick, for an extremely conscise, easily understood analysis of what most of us have been trying to say from the first. Taking things off the Oriskany is just plain wrong--in every sense. It's morally wrong, ethically wrong, and finally legally wrong. Thank you very much for your clarification on this final point.