Removed thread.

[HowardE]

CLA,

I have been following this post since the first deleted post was posted. There was a subsequent post that was an attempt to be more generic, mostly regarding the destruction of the reef. Most people agreed (including myself) in that post that the destruction of the reef was in fact the MOST IMPORTANT part of all of all the posts in question here.

I don't think that anyone here would debate that there is benefit to any diver to see poor diving and/or destruction of any reef.

My point in all of my posts, was that we are all here on SB, are Divers and Global Citizens. Being a diver, and a citizen of this planet, I personally hope that every diver would be committed to preserving the environment in which we all find so much enjoyment. The remainder of my point was to agree with SB policy, in my belief as a global citizen, that "where" these people came from was mostly irrelevant, and violated the TOS. I am not a mod, so I can't speak for them... But anyway...

My only hope is that people everywhere hear about the resort that allowed this to happen, and perhaps people will think twice about supporting that resort. This is what the discussion should have focused on. (IMHO)

 

[Diver Dennis]

Sometimes it takes a lot of posts to get to the real issue howarde. Good point.

 

[redacted]

To be clear about this - and I realize that it is a little complicated - mentioning a country in general is not against the TOS. Neither for that matter is mentioning a nationality where it is simply a general part of the information being conveyed. For instance if two English divers are killed in an accident in the Philippines there is nothing wrong with identifying them as English or the country as the Philipinnes. However, if the inference is then drawn that they had bad training like other English people and all English divers were potentially dangerous divers this would be against the TOS as it's generalizing about a nationality and very probably not true either.
.

I agree, buy I dont think the TOS has really addressed this adequately. The problem is not "nationality" (which may have some legal conotation in the US and some other countries when it relates to discrimination based on race, creed, or color) but the uncompimentary generalization applied to a class or group. It would be like saying: "If you are not DIR, you are a stroke". But that would probably be another thread.

Thanks

 

[chip104]

Seriously, I really hope that we can see some constructive suggestions to put pressure on the poorly run operations to improve, by cajoling or coercing I don't reall mind - opinions please?

FWIW, here are some suggestions I put up before the thread got deleted:

About mentioning the dive shop name - I would like for it to be named. Maybe we can begin a letter campaign to the Philippine scuba diving quality assurance board (My instructor was the ex-director, so it is very possible to evaluate them), starting with the international SBers planning to visit PG. This will put international pressure to evaluate the dive shop in question and will hopefully lead to a cessation or decrease in poor diving practices.

I'm a strong believer in Senador Gordon. Tourists bring in much needed foreign currency to our economy and we have many attractions to show off. If we're gonna brag about our stuff, we gotta understand that not all tourists will show a regard for our environment as much as we'd like. But we can lay down some standard ground rules.

Since it is obvious that the dive shops have failed in regulating how we should respect our reefs, maybe the government should step in. One of the things I'd like to see is a standardized briefing made to all tourist divers coming in to the country. Another thing I'd like to see is a mandatory council (like the fishermans in barangays) that all the dive shops in a given area must join. These councils will be responsible for enforcing the set rules.

If WOW Philippines kicked it up a notch and spearheaded government regulation on diving, maybe we'll see a change.

Now I know this sounds all fine and dandy on paper and that implimentation (ie enforcement) is another thing. This is where us as divers must spearhead a campaign to change the mindset of "Pinoy niceness" (this is a sweeping generalization, sorry for my bigotry. What should be used instead?) inorder to preserve our reefs and keep the money wheels turning.

I'm just rambling now...it'd be a shame to see this thread closed and locked. Then how else can we get international awareness on the situation?

For international and local constructive comments (ie feel free to flame my ideas, but please also post suggestions to make them better). Thanks for any insight!



PS I asked a mod for a copy of my posts - if anyone else posted something that contributed to finding solutions in the deleted threads and wants a copy to repost.

 

[Hammerhead]

On the part of the PPD, maybe it is also our responsibility to ascertain if the allegations are true- that is, if there really is a predominance of destructive divers from a certain racial group. Maybe it’s just hearsay and we’ve blown it out of proportion.QUOTE]


CLA,

Here's my original letter to the mods, long winded, I know, but a lot of points to get across: -

I refer to your decision to close a recent thread on http://www.scubaboard.com/ about Korean divers in Puerto Galera, Philippines on the grounds of racism.



As an expatriate of 31 years’ standing, having had a Korean girlfriend and now being married to a Chinese woman who is the mother of our two Eurasian girls, I hope I can escape any accusations of racism.



You may not be aware of what’s happening in Puerto Galera, but I visit 3-4 times a year, and I can assure you it’s not pretty. There is a real problem, and the reefs around the main dive sites bear testimony to this.



Large groups of 8-12 Korean (yes, and I mean exclusively Korean divers) with no experience / buoyancy skills / environmental awareness are being literally dropped (they hit the bottom hard!) into the sea, and onto some of the most beautiful coral you’ll find in Asia.



Quite tellingly, the Korean divers from these operations are generally known to the other shops as ‘popcorn’ divers for their lack of skills.



I know it’s not fair to criticize the divers themselves, but the standard of their diving is genuinely atrocious – I’d pay money just to find out what they are taught, because it’s not safe and it’s not diving.



The two Korean-owned and -operated organizations in question operate without any responsibility to any other parties, upsetting the long built-up balance of cooperation and trust that exists between the many longer-standing businesses in the area.



A colleague of mine here in Macau is a former Instructor (for 8 years and 5,000 dives with one of the most reputable Dive Shops in the area). His experiences of these operations include: -

Instructors taking divers down with spearguns in a no fishing area
The two operations refusing to join the existing affiliation of dive schools


On another occasion, a group of their divers was lost on a drift dive. This can happen, the dive shop affected generally alerts all of the other afilliated shops by radio and coordinated search parties are sent out. A chopper is also called, and medical staff put on alert. In this instance, all this very nearly didn’t happen as the Koreans didn’t feel it necessary to alert the others.



Luckily all survived, the last diver being washed up on a beach some 20-odd kilometers away 24 hours later.



Your deleting the tread for perceived bigotry is understandable, even commendable. However the fact remains that any other ‘bad’ divers tend to be with guides who are not afraid to let them know what’s ok and what’s not. They learn or they are not allowed to dive again with that Dive Shop, and word is spread around about any repeat offender. I’ve seen it happen.



The Instructors, the guides, the DMs, the Managers of the Dive Shops and the Hotels that host them, and last of all, the investors who made it all possible are, as far as I know all Korean. Jointly and severally they should be publicly named and shamed for what they are doing.



If you wish, I’ll pass along connections to some of my other friends who work there. Believe me, if you could talk to these experienced instructors (who, BTW deal with a veritable United Nations of students every year, and could never be considered racist), you would probably consider my message very mild in tone.



I have CC’d a few parties who might be interested in this topic.



Feel free to quote me



Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the only thing being blown out of proportion was the racism angle, but to address your concerns, I'll be in touch with a few of the regular visitors & dive professionals to back me up with a few more example witnessed first hand...

happybuddha - where are you when I need you?

Regards,

 

[Scuby Dooby]

Hi all,

Away from the PPD board for a few days and you all go and have so much fun without me!

I do have a comment to make though, that I think hasn't been made yet. A lot of the discussion regarding the labelling by the crowd in america (claws in people, i'm american too) of these poor K______ dive shops and K______ divers is lacking in one respect: I don't believe any of these americans have ever been diving in Puerto Galera.

I go diving there quite often and I think those of you dropping in and commenting on this thread have to realize something. The K______ shops in question generally book tour groups from K_______ of exclusively K________ divers and then bring them straight to Puerto Galera to dive. I too have seen the attrocious skills that these divers have and the mess they make of a dive site. The fact is, the owners and divers at these shops are, I would conservatively guess, 99.9% K______.

Puerto Galera is full of tourists, and there are many shops that cater to people of different nationalities. A description here relying on nationality is simply constructive and accurate. Maybe people did head off in nasty or innappropriate directions in the other thread, don't know i didn't get to read it. But I can promise you that what is being said about destruction on the reefs by Korean divers from these Korean owned shops in Puerto Galera is true. If you think that is racist (according to the TOS or any other system) then, respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about and need to come over here and dive with these people before you touch your fingers to your keyboard again on this topic. I have absolutely nothing against Koreans, I have korean friends. I do have a gripe against the korean dive shops doing this and the koreans who dive there and take part in the destruction.

And comments along the lines of 'we are all american, it doesn't matter what your cultural heritage is' are really nothing but annoying and naive. Puerto Galera is not in the US and the problem being discussed has nothing to do with american race issues. The shops are Korean. I cannont understand how the use of that word could make a thread against the TOS. In this instance, it is nothing but accurate.

 

[pakman]

Hi all,

I go diving there quite often and I think those of you dropping in and commenting on this thread have to realize something. The K______ shops in question generally book tour groups from K_______ of exclusively K________ divers and then bring them straight to Puerto Galera to dive. I too have seen the attrocious skills that these divers have and the mess they make of a dive site. The fact is, the owners and divers at these shops are, I would conservatively guess, 99.9% K______.

[Putting aside my jar of morning kimchi...]

That is what I was trying to get at in my earlier post in the thread that got deleted. As Chip mentioned, what is needed is for other PG resort owners and dive shops to have some constructive dialogue with these South K____ operations. By the way, I recall that Asia Divers/ El Galleon had a native Korean tech instructor. Never met him when I was there. Would think someone like that might be a good asset to use to communicate between the two parties or at least get the point across about the need to preserve the PG reefs. And as in other parts of Asia, confrontation/ face losing is not the best way to solve things...

By the way which resorts are K_____ ? I just remember someone pointing out Red Sun or whatever the nice resort on the cliffs on the end of small laguna was K___ owned. Then there was a small dive shop next to La Laguna Resort that advertised in K language. There was one big newer resort in middle Sabang that seemed to have predominately K____ clientele...

Maybe part of it could be solved if the K tour operators brought in a bunch a beautiful K____ fashion models:07: ... that would make everyone happy, well at least the male portion... (oops, about to set off the SB TOS on sexism....!!:11: ) Or we need to have the Dear Leader from North K____ setup some shops in PG and have the North K___ spies kidnap the South K___ divers and "re-educate" them...

OK gotta run, need to meet up with a group of J____ tourists in Hong Kong this weekend and teach them how to act badly.

 

[Bruciebabe]

Imagine if you educated some divers in the confined water and classroom and gave them a referral then when they got to resort they were signed off with no further training. Then given overweighted weight belts and dropped on the reef, with cameras.
This is exactly what it looks like.

 

[chip104]

Thanks Scuby. Your post is the bitter truth to the situation in PG but some members of the SB community did not want to hear it or think it abides to the TOS. We tried to explain it in the previous deleted threads, but it didn't work out.

And howarde makes a good point - when rallying support from divers all over the world they just need to hear about the destruction of reefs in PG by bad divers. Race is not an issue when discussing possible solutions.

This current thread has served its purpose. There is another thread newly open to discuss solutions: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=118557 . Please provide input!

Maybe part of it could be solved if the K tour operators brought in a bunch a beautiful K____ fashion models:07: ... that would make everyone happy, well at least the male portion... (oops, about to set off the SB TOS on sexism....!!:11: ) Or we need to have the Dear Leader from North K____ setup some shops in PG and have the North K___ spies kidnap the South K___ divers and "re-educate" them...

OK gotta run, need to meet up with a group of J____ tourists in Hong Kong this weekend and teach them how to act badly.

LOL! Pak, your posts just keep getting more and more amusing. Let's runaway and get married. :14:

 

[Kim]

I have korean friends. I do have a gripe against the korean dive shops doing this and the koreans who dive there and take part in the destruction.

It's a valid gripe and I've already said, when it stays focused exactly on the people responsible there's nothing wrong with saying it.

And comments along the lines of 'we are all american, it doesn't matter what your cultural heritage is' are really nothing but annoying and naive. Puerto Galera is not in the US and the problem being discussed has nothing to do with american race issues. The shops are Korean. I cannont understand how the use of that word could make a thread against the TOS. In this instance, it is nothing but accurate.

I am also not in the US and I have seen similar problems from similar dive shops catering to other nationalities. It's valid to criticize this sort of thing and to name names. However you obviously didn't read the threads in question very well. Some of the comments did not stay focused - did make generalizations based on race - did digress into other types of tourist behavior that had nothing to do with diving at all. In fact, it was so obvious that some of the PPD members themselves started questioning whether some of what was being said was going too far and would probably result in pullings/deletings. You may now try to pretend that none of this happened and my actions are the result of some kind of American bias, but I am confident that the threads that we still have copies of, speak for themselves, and fully justify the actions that were taken.