Religion and scuba
- Thread starter Sonnylynnvick75
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Dear dfx,
If religion is a prerequisite that is required for anything good or bad to be done, then I don't see your point. I can't think of a single atrocity or social benefit that could be done or not done because of religion. Can I blow up a building or have a hanging next to a burning cross without religion? Sure! Can I have the world's largest amount of orphanages and shelters for disenfranchised people without religion? Sure. Or, I can do either because I don't like the price of chicken soup in a can Delhi. If you think that religion is a requirement for atrocity then study Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and every other communist/fascist/anti religion totalitarian that has committed atrocities. Heck, to quote another theme in this thread there is a VERY good argument to be made that even the Crusades were not truly about religion. War is never about religion, it is about power, religion, like economics, is just a tool to help nasty people achieve their goals.
Speaking of Delhi, there is a Sikh Gurdwara there that I visit every year. They feed 7,000 people lunch every single day from religious donations of money and labor (just fyi).
Again, you and I don't disagree entirely about religion and atrocity (perhaps semantics). There is no doubt that religion played an important role in the world's greatest crimes. I'm only asking that you use your own same logic and give a little respect to religion and social welfare.
If you were to open a phone book in a large US city and look at women's shelters, orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, counseling centers, primary, secondary and university education centers etc, you would likely see 30-50% of them are religious based. If you were to go to the second and third world you would likely see that percentage doubled at the very least, if not approaching 100%.
Those people should not be associated with the judgmental, fundamentalist, jack-snap that you are making your argument against (who rightly deserves your derision). The fact is that religious people and institutions do huge amounts of good daily, and occasionally some idiot makes it seem that is not so.
If you can't see that, well...
As for atrocities vs goodness done, first off I don't think it is a scale worth mentioning, because despite any effort the world lacks goodness and exceeds at everything else, but let me say this... In my layman's opinion (I'm not an expert but I do have advanced degrees in religion and philosophy, as well as having worked for NGOs, including churches, USAID, the Red Cross, and United Way, placing millions of dollars into programs)... If it weren't for religion around the world taking care of social welfare in my best guess if all of it stopped tomorrow there would be between 1-300 million people dead in a month as a direct result. Just looking at the amount of Hindu temples in India that feed homeless and disenfranchised people...the numbers would be staggering.
Again, I'm not arguing bad crap that has happened in the name of religion, it's a ton, my point is that it isn't all bad, and in fact there is roughly a metric butt ton of good stuff going on in the name of religion at any point in time, and it deserves a little respect. Most certainly from wealthy people living in the first world that have potable water at their instant disposal. It's very easy for us to sit here and criticize idiots that say American soldiers are being killed because they affronted "God." It's a whole another thing to pick a dying person off the street in Calcutta and take him to Mother Theresa's orphanage where a simple cup of soup and two days of rest will make him well. I despise that idiot, along with you, that says that about soldiers, but in our vehemence let's not forget the people that use religion for good.
If religion is a prerequisite that is required for anything good or bad to be done, then I don't see your point. I can't think of a single atrocity or social benefit that could be done or not done because of religion. Can I blow up a building or have a hanging next to a burning cross without religion? Sure! Can I have the world's largest amount of orphanages and shelters for disenfranchised people without religion? Sure. Or, I can do either because I don't like the price of chicken soup in a can Delhi. If you think that religion is a requirement for atrocity then study Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and every other communist/fascist/anti religion totalitarian that has committed atrocities. Heck, to quote another theme in this thread there is a VERY good argument to be made that even the Crusades were not truly about religion. War is never about religion, it is about power, religion, like economics, is just a tool to help nasty people achieve their goals.
Speaking of Delhi, there is a Sikh Gurdwara there that I visit every year. They feed 7,000 people lunch every single day from religious donations of money and labor (just fyi).
Again, you and I don't disagree entirely about religion and atrocity (perhaps semantics). There is no doubt that religion played an important role in the world's greatest crimes. I'm only asking that you use your own same logic and give a little respect to religion and social welfare.
If you were to open a phone book in a large US city and look at women's shelters, orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, counseling centers, primary, secondary and university education centers etc, you would likely see 30-50% of them are religious based. If you were to go to the second and third world you would likely see that percentage doubled at the very least, if not approaching 100%.
Those people should not be associated with the judgmental, fundamentalist, jack-snap that you are making your argument against (who rightly deserves your derision). The fact is that religious people and institutions do huge amounts of good daily, and occasionally some idiot makes it seem that is not so.
If you can't see that, well...
As for atrocities vs goodness done, first off I don't think it is a scale worth mentioning, because despite any effort the world lacks goodness and exceeds at everything else, but let me say this... In my layman's opinion (I'm not an expert but I do have advanced degrees in religion and philosophy, as well as having worked for NGOs, including churches, USAID, the Red Cross, and United Way, placing millions of dollars into programs)... If it weren't for religion around the world taking care of social welfare in my best guess if all of it stopped tomorrow there would be between 1-300 million people dead in a month as a direct result. Just looking at the amount of Hindu temples in India that feed homeless and disenfranchised people...the numbers would be staggering.
Again, I'm not arguing bad crap that has happened in the name of religion, it's a ton, my point is that it isn't all bad, and in fact there is roughly a metric butt ton of good stuff going on in the name of religion at any point in time, and it deserves a little respect. Most certainly from wealthy people living in the first world that have potable water at their instant disposal. It's very easy for us to sit here and criticize idiots that say American soldiers are being killed because they affronted "God." It's a whole another thing to pick a dying person off the street in Calcutta and take him to Mother Theresa's orphanage where a simple cup of soup and two days of rest will make him well. I despise that idiot, along with you, that says that about soldiers, but in our vehemence let's not forget the people that use religion for good.
Hi OP-I'm an atheist. Just like my other 2 dive buddies. Hope that helps.
Sorry I temporarily forgot your N=1 belief in apocryphal stories. I would have no trouble naming any number of atrocities done in the name of religion, some as recent as this week (ISIL) and going back through all of recorded history. It is hard for me to conceive of counterweighting positive examples. I look forward to your reply
phoenix31tt
Contributor
Just two weeks ago we fed a number of schools... 3000+ students... for Chirstmas we do the same... we've given scholarships, visited the poor and the homeless who were apparently looking for that one person to talk to them to give them hope... We're building a free-to-use facility where people have free access to technology, books, recreational areas, church area etc. This is MY personal church... a small church... 100+ active members... and we're doing all that... because you don't read about what we do in the news doesn't mean it doesn't exists... its just not something media can sensationalize to boast ratings and make money...
just look at the drive the africans have to show their country is NOT what is portrayed in the media... you try to sound intelligent but you speak of things which you DON'T know and criticize it... i'm not going to scour the internet to show you all the good religion has done... you can waste your time doing that... i'll just tell you what we do... unlike you what i say is actually based on MY own experience, knowledge and understanding... not something i read somewhere... or something the news told me... or something i saw on the internet once when i was trying to justify my religion bashing
you can point out all the suicide bombers etc that you want... they always seem to make it to the news quicker than the guy that donated a million dollars to the hospital because God told him to do so...
So how many ISIL beheadings does that compensate for? How many African slaves? How many European Jews? How many American (and Canadian) First Nation peoples? Should I go on? One of us lives in the land of rainbow ponies. . . I have a hard time equating you group donating a free meal (congratulations for doing that) with genocide, apparently you don't.
---------------added for a historical perspective----------
Take up the White Man’s burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child
Take up the White Man’s burden
In patience to abide
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple
An hundred times made plain
To seek another’s profit
And work another’s gain
Take up the White Man’s burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah slowly) to the light:
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
“Our loved Egyptian night?”
Take up the White Man’s burden-
Have done with childish days-
The lightly proffered laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!
Source: Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden: The United States & The Philippine Islands, 1899.” Rudyard Kipling’s Verse: Definitive Edition (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1929).
phoenix31tt
Contributor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll
since you love to read stuff on the interwebs... you try to figure out what's responsible for the majority of all those deaths... don't want to do that... visit the prisons, do a survey ask them how many of them did what they did because religion told them... or do you want to take the few extremists that you see on the news and use that as an example to judge a whole religion
african slaves? are you some kind of moron? That wasn't religious... that was RACIAL... and for power... and greed.. lol... jeez...
bro... 10 foods to boost your brainpower | BBC Good Food
i'm good... you don't know what genocide is.. and you have no idea what religious genocide is... but read the wiki list...
and guess what... people were being beheaded in and out of religion... religion is not the cause of beheadings...
but... i know i know N=1... remain in your ignorance
since you love to read stuff on the interwebs... you try to figure out what's responsible for the majority of all those deaths... don't want to do that... visit the prisons, do a survey ask them how many of them did what they did because religion told them... or do you want to take the few extremists that you see on the news and use that as an example to judge a whole religion
african slaves? are you some kind of moron? That wasn't religious... that was RACIAL... and for power... and greed.. lol... jeez...
bro... 10 foods to boost your brainpower | BBC Good Food
i'm good... you don't know what genocide is.. and you have no idea what religious genocide is... but read the wiki list...
and guess what... people were being beheaded in and out of religion... religion is not the cause of beheadings...
but... i know i know N=1... remain in your ignorance
Nasty nasty with the name calling Clownie. . .
They asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5)
"tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).
phoenix31tt
Contributor
it was a question... i didn't call you anything...
feel free to check out that link... maybe you'd understand the difference then
10 foods to boost your brainpower | BBC Good Food
Similar threads
