Religion and scuba

[mmmbelows]

Rich, just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful thoughts and points you've included in this thread, I've really enjoyed them.

Religion and beliefs are such a polarizing topic for many. The one thing I think atheists should at least be able to agree with- whether God exists or not, if you look to the best of what Christianity offers and the topic of Grace... belief in God or not the idea of Grace should be universally accepted even if you're accepting it outside of religion. If we could have more Grace in the world no matter the religious or non-religious we'd have a better world for all.

 

[dfx]

1.) There's not a universally accepted definitive study to inform every decision a care giver needs to make.

Well, that depends. Each case is different. In some cases, there is only one accepted course of action. In others, multiple factors need to be weighed against each other. And that's a good thing. It allows us to make decisions on a case by case basis, and sometimes there's multiple "right" things to do. That's a victory for this process.

2.) Today's evidence can be refuted later. This happens fairly often.

And that's also a good thing. It's called "learning." A valuable tool available to humanity. You should try it some time.

3.) The individual patient often differs from the study group.

Of course, that's the whole point of having a study group.

4.) The studies whereby evidence was obtained are often open to interpretation and debate.

Only if the studies aren't well done. A properly executed study doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

5.) It is not by studies that one concludes human beings have an inherent value and are worthwhile to invest in, such as by treatment of illness, even though some from a functional evolutionary perspective are so irreparably dysfunctional as to appear a non-productive burden to society. Yet we care for them.

Correct. Humanity has learned that lesson. A few centuries ago, or even just half a century ago, some or maybe even a lot of people would have disagreed with you there. Again that's a process called learning. See above.

6.) So-called evidence-based medicine is a value tool in health care. But it's not all there is to it.

Oh, but it is. Which other tools that aren't based on evidence do you propose? Faith healing? Homeopathy? Acupuncture? Prayer?

---------- Post added July 15th, 2015 at 08:27 PM ----------

Rich, just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful thoughts and points you've included in this thread, I've really enjoyed them.

Religion and beliefs are such a polarizing topic for many. The one thing I think atheists should at least be able to agree with- whether God exists or not, if you look to the best of what Christianity offers and the topic of Grace... belief in God or not the idea of Grace should be universally accepted even if you're accepting it outside of religion. If we could have more Grace in the world no matter the religious or non-religious we'd have a better world for all.

Sure. Whatever you mean by "grace." But you don't need religion for that. However, you do need religion to tell people that suicide bombings are a good thing to do. Or torturing suspected heretics or witches until they confess and then burn them at the stake in public.

 

[phoenix31tt]

Sure. Whatever you mean by "grace." But you don't need religion for that. However, you do need religion to tell people that suicide bombings are a good thing to do. Or torturing suspected heretics or witches until they confess and then burn them at the stake in public.

And these are the kind of shorted sited and ridiculous responses that makes for boring conversation with people who really need to get a better understanding...

Suicide bombings and other atrocities are not and will never be bound to religion alone... Just look at all the school shootings in the good old US of A, or the dude that crashed the plane the other day... I mean seriously?... Some people choose to hide behind religion, some choose to hide behind freedom and democracy and others choose to hide behind perceived justice....

Religion is not responsible for all that's bad in the world... Same way it isn't responsible for all that's good in the world...


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[dfx]

Suicide bombings and other atrocities are not and will never be bound to religion alone... Just look at all the school shootings in the good old US of A, or the dude that crashed the plane the other day... I mean seriously?... Some people choose to hide behind religion, some choose to hide behind freedom and democracy and others choose to hide behind perceived justice....

Religion is not responsible for all that's bad in the world... Same way it isn't responsible for all that's good in the world...

You're right. Religion isn't responsible for every evil that happens and has happened. But for a lot of it. Most, I would argue.

As for the good things. Yeah, religion is responsible for some of it. But the majority of the good things that we have and that have happened in history have secular reasons behind them.

 

[phoenix31tt]

And you could argue that as long as you want... People are responsible for every evil... And as usual they will find an excuse to do whatever it is they want...

Don't blame religion... Or maybe you could do a study of the most deadly acts of mankind in history and see how much of them have anything to do with religion...

Or do a study on criminals and see how much of them did what they did because of their religion...

You take a minority of the people, I refer to the extremists, that claim islam and use that as your reference... And that is both unfair to Islam and religion in general...


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[dfx]

And you could argue that as long as you want... People are responsible for every evil... And as usual they will find an excuse to do whatever it is they want...

That's a nice way of rationalizing it, and one that's very commonly put forward. But it's wrong. Here's a first-hand account of how religion makes people do evil things. It's not evil people doing evil things and using religion as an excuse. No, it's actively religion making otherwise good people do those evil things. Unless you believe that what the WBC is doing is actually good. But that's just one of many examples.

 

[phoenix31tt]

That's a nice way of rationalizing it, and one that's very commonly put forward. But it's wrong. Here's a first-hand account of how religion makes people do evil things. It's not evil people doing evil things and using religion as an excuse. No, it's actively religion making otherwise good people do those evil things. Unless you believe that what the WBC is doing is actually good. But that's just one of many examples.

And that's where you are wrong..

1. People are responsible for their actions... Religion doesn't make anyone do anything in the same way a woman does not make a man rape her by dressing seductively

2. It was never my argument, even if I subscribed to your logic that religion can make people do evil, it is no where responsible for the majority... And I would be willing to see you do the global or criminal studies


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[BRT]

You're right. Religion isn't responsible for every evil that happens and has happened. But for a lot of it. Most, I would argue.

As for the good things. Yeah, religion is responsible for some of it. But the majority of the good things that we have and that have happened in history have secular reasons behind them.

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot. Lets see you match that death toll with religious bad guys. Bad people justify their natural tendencies with religion but I don't think any of the above had any religious beliefs except that they didn't believe in God.

 

[NAM001]

This discussion is very entertaining. ON one hand there is the argument that goes. "We don't need no farms that pollute our waters and air. Farms are old fashion and out of date with todays reality. We can go to the market to get our food, Proof that we don't need farms.

Then there is the,,,, we are evolved beings and do not need the mythical stories that cripple us. All the while the others qupte " Knock and the door shall be opened to all that seek me and not seek to exclude me". So evolution is to some the test of ones faith, where to others it is the means to denounce it. So many examples of the ultimate paradox. Even in our constitution it exists. We are founded in god and have insured the free practice of religion and therefore a separation of church and state, yet our state courts rule in the favor of one religion's practice or the other. Science will always challenge the religions, They can explain gravity and the like but can not explain the beginning of everything. Very much like George Carlins line of " If God is so great can he make a rock so big that he him self can not move it? Science explains where the egg came from and then the chicken, and the air and the land and the development of the universe. But ask them where the material came from for the creation of te universe and they can only say they don't have enough knowledge. And yet with that lack of knowledge they have enough data to say that God does not exist because they ( ill equipped) can not prove it. And as such faith is unfounded. What is entertaining is that if faith was founded it would not be faith. Perhaps faith is not the test of science as much as science is the test of faith. Only one can rule over the other. PC does not have standing. There is only one number one. So which is the top dog. Is it religion or science that is the demon. A farmer plants a crop, nature brings weeds to infiltrate the field. The argument, Did the farmer create nature or did nature create the farmer. I guess it al depends if you are a farmer or not.

 

[drrich2]

You should try it some time.

I do.

Only if the studies aren't well done. A properly executed study doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

A whole lot of medical treatment research would fall short of your idea of properly executed, then. There are generally a number of potential confounds that can't be fully controlled for.

Correct. Humanity has learned that lesson. A few centuries ago, or even just half a century ago, some or maybe even a lot of people would have disagreed with you there. Again that's a process called learning. See above.

Absent religion, that view that human life has inherent value isn't so much a 'learned truth' as it has become a consensus opinion; much like enslaving black people used to be.

However, you do need religion to tell people that suicide bombings are a good thing to do. Or torturing suspected heretics or witches until they confess and then burn them at the stake in public.

It's by religion some of us conclude there is objective moral truth telling people some things are evil things to do. Absent that, a contemporary society consensus (i.e.: opinion) is about the only difference between that and one group of chimps killing another group of chimps. The history books are written by the winners.

You're right. Religion isn't responsible for every evil that happens and has happened. But for a lot of it. Most, I would argue.

As for the good things. Yeah, religion is responsible for some of it. But the majority of the good things that we have and that have happened in history have secular reasons behind them.

You'd also find secular causes for much of the bad. Because religion is entertwined into many societies, it gets drawn into many social issues, whether it is the underlying cause of an agenda or not.

Then there is the,,,, we are evolved beings and do not need the mythical stories that cripple us.

True, but since many of us won't agree on what is & isn't a myth, we don't go far with that.

On the faith issue, here's an example of faith. When you marry, you bind yourself contractually in a very personal, intimate & vulnerable way to a person you know to some extent, but not completely. Yes, you know a lot, but you don't know how that person will change with the years. Will he/she stay faithful? Will his/her personality morph into something awful to live with? No matter how much you think you know walking to the alter, you've probably got a lot to learn! But if you're there, then you know enough to settle in your own mind & heart to invest a measure of faith in your partner, yourself and your relationship. And either to marry or to not do so could in theory turn out to be a mistake. Marriage is a leap of faith that can take you places you couldn't reach without it. Wait for the certainly of a sure thing & you may find yourself alone.

So, too, is faith in God like this.

Richard.