Religion and scuba

[drrich2]

There are many 1st hand accounts by recipients of miracles, modern day, in addition to the Biblical account, for those who wish to secure more evidence. Not that I anticipate it will change any minds at this point.

One thing this thread reminds me of is the issue of how people react to God. There's a focus on whether He chooses to perform overt miracles repeatedly in the modern day to overwhelm skeptics with evidence He exist. Like, oh, say, carve 'I am God' in the moon in mile wide & deep letters.

Let's say He did. Then what? Would all of you drop to your knees and worship Him, devoting yourselves to Him, and calling upon the name of Christ to be saved?

Or would you decide that a powerful extraterrestrial intelligence was exploiting what you consider the Christian 'myth?'

Or would you challenge His sovereignty? Basically claim He doesn't have the right to rule over & judge us?

God has made much of His character and will known to whoever would avidly seek Him and it. On the other hand, the Biblical account gives examples where people who witnessed a number of miracles 1st hand didn't adhere to following God.

It's clear some of you don't like God, whom you consider a fictional character. Would that really change if you learned He was real?

Richard.

 

[phoenix31tt]

They want to be convinced into believing when with such closed minds it's an impossible task... It will always be explained away...

So it really doesn't matter... As I say this is a truth that unfortunately is often realised when it's to late to change your choice


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[redacted]

There are many 1st hand accounts by recipients of miracles, modern day, in addition to the Biblical account, for those who wish to secure more evidence. Not that I anticipate it will change any minds at this point.

One thing this thread reminds me of is the issue of how people react to God. There's a focus on whether He chooses to perform overt miracles repeatedly in the modern day to overwhelm skeptics with evidence He exist. Like, oh, say, carve 'I am God' in the moon in mile wide & deep letters.

Let's say He did. Then what? Would all of you drop to your knees and worship Him, devoting yourselves to Him, and calling upon the name of Christ to be saved?

Or would you decide that a powerful extraterrestrial intelligence was exploiting what you consider the Christian 'myth?'

Or would you challenge His sovereignty? Basically claim He doesn't have the right to rule over & judge us?

God has made much of His character and will known to whoever would avidly seek Him and it. On the other hand, the Biblical account gives examples where people who witnessed a number of miracles 1st hand didn't adhere to following God.

It's clear some of you don't like God, whom you consider a fictional character. Would that really change if you learned He was real?

Richard.

Performs miracles and kills babies? Perhaps.

 

[doctormike]

I hesitate to bring this up, because I really do not wish to insult theists. I have many close friends who are religious, and I respect them and the following words might anger them. Rich, I hope that you and the other theists here take this in the right spirit.

I consider "faith" to be a horrible sin (irony of the phrase recognized!).

We have evolved extremely complex brains that can process abstract thought better than any other species on the planes, as far as we can tell. We have the ability to observe the natural world and draw conclusions based on these observations. We have the ability to construct theories based on these conclusions, and TEST them until we are sure that they are correct, and then use these theories to create new designs and insights. We can use this process to make our life immeasurably better, to feed our children and heal our sick. To shelter us from the elements. To make our lives better than they were by any reasonable standard when compared to the first 99% of the time of our existence, before the advent of the scientific method.

So "faith" means that you are specifically believing something without evidence. Obviously, that's fine if you want to do that, and the vast majority of human beings do just that. But I think that's horrible: to HAVE the ability to test reality, but to refuse to do so.

Would any of you grab an unmarked, unanalyzed aluminum 40 and switch to it at 90 feet? Having faith that you were above the MOD? Why not?

There are many 1st hand accounts by recipients of miracles, modern day, in addition to the Biblical account, for those who wish to secure more evidence.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[phoenix31tt]

I hesitate to bring this up, because I really do not wish to insult theists. I have many close friends who are religious, and I respect them and the following words might anger them. Rich, I hope that you and the other theists here take this in the right spirit.

I consider "faith" to be a horrible sin (irony of the phrase recognized!).

We have evolved extremely complex brains that can process abstract thought better than any other species on the planes, as far as we can tell. We have the ability to observe the natural world and draw conclusions based on these observations. We have the ability to construct theories based on these conclusions, and TEST them until we are sure that they are correct, and then use these theories to create new designs and insights. We can use this process to make our life immeasurably better, to feed our children and heal our sick. To shelter us from the elements. To make our lives better than they were by any reasonable standard when compared to the first 99% of the time of our existence, before the advent of the scientific method.

So "faith" means that you are specifically believing something without evidence. Obviously, that's fine if you want to do that, and the vast majority of human beings do just that. But I think that's horrible: to HAVE the ability to test reality, but to refuse to do so.

Would any of you grab an unmarked, unanalyzed aluminum 40 and switch to it at 90 feet? Having faith that you were above the MOD? Why not?



You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seen much more insulting things...

But just to correct you... Faith in God is not diving below the MOD without analysing the tank...

Faith is letting "God" analyze the tank and taking his word for it... And then diving the MOD he recommend

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

It doesn't preclude you from having a brain, one cannot say I have faith God will save me and jump of a building. One can have faith and say God will save me, but you have to follow the guidelines (MOD) he laid out


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[drrich2]

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think I do. People who get a true so-called faith healing of a disease have some evidence. Maybe not the kind you're looking for, or the reproducible on demand kind, but evidence it is.

Yes, we have complex brains & humans have industriously make much of their potential in terms of learning & technological achievement. Doesn't mean we've figured out the whole universe, or that we're fit to comprehend the greater mind & ways of God. And as for being sure our theories are correct? Often 'sure' amounts to a probability, or degree of confidence, that something is true. But one of the strengths of science is knowing that sometimes it's wrong, and learning from the mistake when that's proven.

Faith doesn't mean accepting something without evidence. It's a response to evidence (some of which is via testimony & historically) as we understand it that we find compelling. I cannot comprehend God in His fullness; trying to understand Him is at best an exercise in perceiving some of the 'dots' and coming to know enough to say, yes, I believe this is true, and I wish to receive/act on this truth. I don't always understand why God did this or that, but I have faith in His nature and character. I accept that He's good and knows what He's doing.

Richard.

 

[doctormike]

Sorry Rich and Phoenix, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Faith to me means believing something without proof, without evidence.

And evidence means... oh, never mind.

God be with you, dive safe and keep loving your fellow human beings. Your comments have been respectful, and I appreciate that.

An atheist was rowing in a lake, when suddenly the Loch Ness monster attacked and grabbed him from his boat. He panicked and shouted "God help me!", and suddenly, the monster and everything around him just stopped. A voice from the heavens boomed "You say you dont believe in me, but now you are asking for my help?" The atheist looked up and said: "Well, ten seconds ago I didnt believe in the Loch Ness Monster either!"

 

[JohnN]

I think I do. People who get a true so-called faith healing of a disease have some evidence. Maybe not the kind you're looking for, or the reproducible on demand kind, but evidence it is.

Richard,

I do hope you apply a higher standard in your practice. You do believe in evidence based medicine, don't you?

As one of the SB medial moderators has noted previously: "The plural of anecdote is not data"

 

[phoenix31tt]

Sorry Rich and Phoenix, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Faith to me means believing something without proof, without evidence.

And evidence means... oh, never mind.

God be with you, dive safe and keep loving your fellow human beings. Your comments have been respectful, and I appreciate that.

An atheist was rowing in a lake, when suddenly the Loch Ness monster attacked and grabbed him from his boat. He panicked and shouted "God help me!", and suddenly, the monster and everything around him just stopped. A voice from the heavens boomed "You say you dont believe in me, but now you are asking for my help?" The atheist looked up and said: "Well, ten seconds ago I didnt believe in the Loch Ness Monster either!"

Lol...

And that's when i really don't mind having a debate or conversation... Keep the respect... The ridicule isn't necessary ... And yes we can agree to disagree...


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[drrich2]

I do hope you apply a higher standard in your practice. You do believe in evidence based medicine, don't you?

To a point. And the issue is a tangent, but I'll bite to say this much (especially in the mental health field):

1.) There's not a universally accepted definitive study to inform every decision a care giver needs to make.

2.) Today's evidence can be refuted later. This happens fairly often.

3.) The individual patient often differs from the study group.

4.) The studies whereby evidence was obtained are often open to interpretation and debate.

5.) It is not by studies that one concludes human beings have an inherent value and are worthwhile to invest in, such as by treatment of illness, even though some from a functional evolutionary perspective are so irreparably dysfunctional as to appear a non-productive burden to society. Yet we care for them.

6.) So-called evidence-based medicine is a value tool in health care. But it's not all there is to it.

Richard.