Relative risk in diving

[Lorenzoid]

Why were people mad at you for saying you want to dive there eventually

I got the impression you were referring to @The Chairman 's story of the reaction he got for mentioning he wanted to do the Grand Traverse before he was full cave certified. Yes?

 

[kaylee_ann]

I got the impression you were referring to @The Chairman 's story of the reaction he got for mentioning he wanted to do the Grand Traverse before he was full cave certified. Yes?

yeah. I never read what he said about diving the Grand Traverse, but what's the issue with saying he has a goal of eventually getting cave certified and diving it?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Recreational diving is practically risk free with simple training. New divers imagination mostly, narcosis will steal away their ability to think, the air will disappear from their tanks if they don’t watch it constantly, their heads will blow up if they need to get to the surface quickly. The new one is the air will get so thick you can’t breathe or CO2 will kill you. There’s a lot of hype in scuba. At the same time they don’t mind passing within feet doing a hundred miles an hour in a tin box.

I like mac's use of hyperbole to make a point. Reading online discussions about all the things that could go wrong, one could get the impression that recreational divers are dying in droves. Readers just need to appreciate that online forums tend to amplify the topics that are of interest to talk about, and safety is a major topic. And rightly so. Although recreational diving can be very safe, DAN wouldn't have to compile accident statistics if diving were as safe as a walk in the woods. Maybe we who are interested enough in diving to participate in online forums like SB give the average diver too much credit? I recall reading that running out of air has long been the most common root cause of accidents. It's not like divers are running out of air all the time, but it apparently does happen often enough that it's worth talking about.

I think this discussion of relative risk and the dangers of recreational diving is arguing shades of gray amidst nuance. None of us thinks it's perfectly safe or (conducted properly) horribly dangerous.

Bullseye! Now, the real trick is to enable divers to judge where what they are doing or thinking of doing lies on the spectrum between "risk free" and "certain death." Training and experience are our main tools that enable us to be better judges of risk. New divers may not be good judges. "Old" divers may be more prone to complacency.

Not only is narcosis noticeable but is easily dealt with by decreasing your depth, do adults know when they drink to much? Surely if they can avoid running out of petrol they can avoid running out of air, and don’t hold your breath when going up is a very simple instruction, like I said the risks in diving are easily avoided and a lot less dangerous than everyday living for a lot of people.

I think often of the analogies between diving and everday activities. Adults know if they have had too much to drink because they have years of experience. There are otherwise responsible, intelligent people out there who misjudged or pushed their limit just a little and found themselves in an unfortunate situation, sometimes behind the wheel of a car. And speaking of cars, most of us have years of experience judging where something we are thinking of doing lies on the risk spectrum. We drive every day. We have years of experience getting the feel of driving a car. We read about others' accidents. We have had close calls. We're practically experts on the risks in driving and other everyday activities. Most of us don't have the same intuitive grasp of the risks in diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Why were people mad at you for saying you want to dive there eventually

Eventually was not a part of that exchange. I was looking for a buddy for the Grand Traverse.

I've been diving since 1969: over 50 years. I've seen some major "no-nos" disappear in that time as well as a few appear. I've had my knowledge of cave diving questioned over my non-use of cookies at one point. They weren't a part of my initial training. It can be hard to keep track of it all. In this case, I had a lot of experience, even more than many who had full cave, but I lacked that certification to do that particular dive. I had no problems with that and it spurred me on to finish that trek. IMHO, we really a bit too much on certs and don't require the right experiences. Case in point: DMs. Most agencies require 50 dives to become a DM. That's probably a quarter of what it should be, but if they're diverse, there are a few peeps who are ready by then. Imagine my surprise to go on a dive at Hudson's grotto, seeing dive gear strewn all around, only to have it "rearranged" when I surfaced 90 minutes later. Actually, the owner was just beginning to re-kit as we were packing to leave. A brief discussion revealed that he had down 5 dives to my one. Five. He then freely confessed that he needed 50 dives for DM and so would kit up, go to the 20 foot platform and veg out for 20. Wow.

Screaming, whispering, spidey tingle... whatever you want to call it. Its definitely there.

I actually had "spidey sense" typed out in my earlier post but deleted it, lol.

Many people miss myriads of clues. They think they are paying atte... SQUIRREL FISH!

Training and practice will bring confidence and ability to handle a situation without panic.

Often it brings overconfidence. Don't get me wrong: I believe in training and preparation. I often bemoan divers who try to replace them with more gear and doo-dads. There are a lot of pony bottles sold because divers just don't learn how to plan. Unfortunately, you can't train for panic. There's simply no way to induce it to see how you'll react. Everyone is a second away from panic though many feel they are immune to it. Panic is completely irrational which makes it completely unpredictable. The best way to deal with it is to avoid it. The best way to avoid it is to know and honor your limits.

Sometimes noticeable, but I've seen enough reports on ScubaBoard of narc.'d people who didn't know it at the time to be wary.

Seldom noticeable. We rely on slurred speech and imbalance to determine if we've drunk too much. We don't talk or walk underwater removing two key attributes of being impaired. In addition, narcosis feels good and the deeper we go the better. Why do you think we're addicted to diving???

It may work for you, but I think some newer divers ought not to have your level of confidence, at least until experience validates it for them.

This should be repeated often. I've met a number of "confident" divers that shouldn't be.

I know mine strength is not what is was.

No one is stronger than Mother nature and she is sneaky biatch. There could be no current on the surface that quickly turns into an "E" ticket ride below. Remember the five "Ds" of handling currents...

I wonder how many get the "E" ticket reference???

 

[kaylee_ann]

Eventually was not a part of that exchange. I was looking for a buddy for the Grand Traverse.

I've been diving since 1969: over 50 years. I've seen some major "no-nos" disappear in that time as well as a few appear. I've had my knowledge of cave diving questioned over my non-use of cookies at one point. They weren't a part of my initial training. It can be hard to keep track of it all. In this case, I had a lot of experience, even more than many who had full cave, but I lacked that certification to do that particular dive. I had no problems with that and it spurred me on to finish that trek. IMHO, we really a bit too much on certs and don't require the right experiences. Case in point: DMs. Most agencies require 50 dives to become a DM. That's probably a quarter of what it should be, but if they're diverse, there are a few peeps who are ready by then. Imagine my surprise to go on a dive at Hudson's grotto, seeing dive gear strewn all around, only to have it "rearranged" when I surfaced 90 minutes later. Actually, the owner was just beginning to re-kit as we were packing to leave. A brief discussion revealed that he had down 5 dives to my one. Five. He then freely confessed that he needed 50 dives for DM and so would kit up, go to the 20 foot platform and veg out for 20. Wow.

ohhh okay now it makes sense. I feel like for certs they should require experience with different kinds of dives. like low visibility, length, depth etc. (within training limits of course).
I don't think I'd be inclined to trust a DM with 50 warm water dives to lead a dive in New England for example. Or someone who usually only dives to 30 feet to lead one at 60 feet.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't think I'd be inclined to trust a DM

I never do, no matter how many dives they have. If I don't feel capable of doing the dive on my own, I simply don't do the dive. If I don't feel my buddy is capable of doing the dive on their own, I simply don't do the dive. Trust me dives are anathema to me. Even with an instructor, I reserve the right to call a dive at any time, for any reason, no questions asked. No one's going to force me into the water.

 

[kaylee_ann]

I never do, no matter how many dives they have. If I don't feel capable of doing the dive on my own, I simply don't do the dive. If I don't feel my buddy is capable of doing the dive on their own, I simply don't do the dive. Trust me dives are anathema to me. Even with an instructor, I reserve the right to call a dive at any time, for any reason, no questions asked. No one's going to force me into the water.

My goal is to be a self-sufficient diver. Not a solo diver, but if my buddy can't handle a problematic situation, or they panic, then I will be able to diffuse the situation and get us back to safety myself.

If someone tries to pressure me into diving a site that is uncomfortable to me, I just won't dive with them. Shows they don't prioritize safety. When someone isn't confident, or gets anxious at the mere idea of the dive, the risk of something going wrong goes up exponentially. Not only that, but I would know my capabilities and limits better than anyone else. Someone suggesting I exceed my limits will not be a buddy of mine.

Edit: Isn't exceeding your limits one of the biggest causes of diver fatalities/injuries?

 

[Wibble]

** removed comment **
(Didn't note the forum name before commenting -- Sorry!)

 

[Celt]

Sometimes noticeable, but I've seen enough reports on ScubaBoard of narc.'d people who didn't know it at the time to be wary.

Yeah I’ve read the same, but don’t believe it. Narcosis will disappear as you get shallow so why would you know you had narcosis when on the surface and not know it on the bottom. Narcosis is probably one of the most exaggerated things about scuba.

 

[BRT]

Yeah I’ve read the same, but don’t believe it. Narcosis will disappear as you get shallow so why would you know you had narcosis when on the surface and not know it on the bottom. Narcosis is probably one of the most exaggerated things about scuba.

I think you overestimate most peoples ability to be aware of themselves. I have a good friend. He has a couple of hundred dives. On Cozumel, he wanted to go to 130 just to see what it was like. One of the DM's agreed to go with him. At 115 they started further down. Then he wondered why the DM was poking him. He was below 130 and had forgotten to look at his depth anymore. My experience is that I can't remember what the gauges I just looked at said. I have never ended up at a depth that I didn't intend to be at, but I am very convinced that my ability to pay attention decreases with depth.