Relative risk in diving

[John C. Ratliff]

What are you talking about? Astonishingly I just finished yet another 45 minute weight lifting routine at the ripe old age of 61 with ZERO heart attacks. I’m perfectly fine solo diving in a ripping current to my MOD and shoving my arm in a hole to drag out lobsters. If you don’t have the training, experience, situational awareness, equipment or competence to do the dive then don’t do the dive.

I dived at age 69 and filmed this video titled “Getting the Lead Out.” This was a solo dive, and I’m still diving at age 76, the same area of the Clackamas River in Oregon.

SeaRat

 

[Celt]

they fail to use critical thinking. lol. like, people hear about risks and grossly over-exaggerate them. then fail to realize those risks easily are avoided by knowing how to dive safely and reduce them.

That’s the key, training and due diligence will mitigate 99% off the risk in scuba,

 

[Celt]

Often they (new divers) don't have a choice. I'll use some examples from mac64, who you replied to.

1.) Until they get first hand experience with a sizable number of deep dives, they don't know their personal susceptibility to inert gas narcosis, and since it varies in an individual over time and often people who are impaired don't realize it, it takes experience to get a sense of what one's limitations are (or at least that they don't appear to come into play during the diving you've done).

2.) Their heads won't explode if they surface quickly, but lung expansion injuries, arterial gas embolism and barotrauma are significant risks.

3.) The air can indeed disappear from their tanks if not watched adequately ('constantly' is over-selling it). Underwater there's a lot of mental task loading and there are distractions. For a newbie, that's a lot to deal with. And if you haven't dove enough to have an intuitive sense of your gas consumption rate tends to run and conditions impact it, it's quite possible to get a nasty surprise.


When people come into the recreational dive hobby, they start out with a set of seemingly arbitrary recommendations based on industry conventional wisdom that work well for the large majority of divers. Such as...

1.) Don't dive solo.
2.) Don't go over 60 feet deep to start; advance through formal training, mentorship or gradually through experience.
3.) Avoid overhead environments, hard (e.g.: cavern) or soft (e.g.: deco. obligations).
4.) Don't go over 130 feet deep without technical training and setup.
5.) Don't dive in caves unless and until formally trained and certified to do so.

That doesn't mean nobody can dive solo (I do), that dipping a few feet deeper than 130 on a Belize Blue Hole deep dive is instantly fatal (I did), swim throughs will kill you, etc...

But it's a good starting point. And when new divers progress to the point where they ask questions about the 'rules' of scuba diving and how rigidly adherent they need to be, a cautious approach is warranted.

Many of the things we consider unacceptably risky in topside life are survived by most people exposed to them. Asbestos in the walls probably won't kill everyone in the building. Some people can routinely drive 80-mph in a 55-mph zone. And so on.

There's value in some of our controversies and debates on ScubaBoard. Let's say you often do 150-foot deep air dives and handle the deco. obligations without having had any formal technical dive training. Okay. You do you. But if someone criticizes your practice as risky, at least that might signal less experienced divers that what you're doing is a bit 'fringe.'

Years ago, I was surprised when a poster shared a video of himself doing a really deep air solo penetration dive into a famous wreck (which sounded to me dangerously reckless), and got practically no push back. I asked about this, discussion ensured, and it turns out this guy was one of the extremely accomplished, famous scuba 'greats.' In a nutshell, he knew what he was doing. Which is fine, but I had no idea then who this guy was, and I imagine most newer divers wouldn't, either. If they find that old thread, they'll see his dive was conducted in the context of great knowledge, skill and experience.


To paraphrase the old G.I. Joe cartoons, knowing is half the battle...but it's not all of it. The underwater environment with scuba puts a task load on our minds that may not be appreciated until we're caught by surprise in an anxiety-provoking situation, and discover using what we know to effectively problem solve is suddenly harder to do.

I think this discussion of relative risk and the dangers of recreational diving is arguing shades of gray amidst nuance. None of us thinks it's perfectly safe or (conducted properly) horribly dangerous. I think an attitude of caution is warranted.

Not only is narcosis noticeable but is easily dealt with by decreasing your depth, do adults know when they drink to much? Surely if they can avoid running out of petrol they can avoid running out of air, and don’t hold your breath when going up is a very simple instruction, like I said the risks in diving are easily avoided and a lot less dangerous than everyday living for a lot of people.

 

[Blackcrusader]

That’s the key, training and due diligence will mitigate 99% off the risk in scuba,

Seems I often read about instructors and technical divers meeting their demise as well as some older divers having natural life ending causes of death like heart attacks. My sentiment is that death is a part of life, the final frontier.
In the end, mac64, we all get cured of our sentiments. Those whom life doesn't cure, death will. Life is just an inconvenient short moment in time. We will all return to our non existent state just as it was before we were conceived in that big bang in the womb of some woman.
Some believe in re-incarnation some want an everlasting life. Just being alive means living with the inherent risks life entails.

We all end up dead, it's just a question of how and why.

 

[The Chairman]

what's the problem with wanting to eventually go there?

I'm not sure I understand the question? Would I go back to Cayman Brac to go diving? Hell yeah. Why not? At 65 with an iffy back and an aluminum plate in my leg that attracts kicks and bumps, would I try to dive more than 5 foot seas? Probably not. My limitations are not your limitations.

A lot have the training and the experience over many years of diving.

But they might lack the strength or stamina...

When people come into the recreational dive hobby, they start out with a set of seemingly arbitrary recommendations based on industry conventional wisdom that work well for the large majority of divers.

Isn't "industry conventional wisdom" an oxymoron??? Not all dive instructors are equal. Some present diving as a set of instructions to follow: no thinking necessary. Others take the time to elucidate on the whys and wherefores. I'm not referring to boastful tales of daring dos that some instructors love to give, but real insights into the Zen of diving.

1.) Don't dive solo.
2.) Don't go over 60 feet deep to start; advance through formal training, mentorship or gradually through experience.
3.) Avoid overhead environments, hard (e.g.: cavern) or soft (e.g.: deco. obligations).
4.) Don't go over 130 feet deep without technical training and setup.
5.) Don't dive in caves unless and until formally trained and certified to do so.

I'm so disappointed that you left off split fins.

If something for some reason is screaming not to go there has to be a reason for it.

It shouldn't have to scream. When I went through my IDC, one of my (de)mentors was Reggie Ross. An amazing cave diver, he always referred to using his "spidey sense". Well over 20 years later and that concept of ultra situational awareness sticks with me. It's as simple as keeping track of your buddy by knowing what their breathing sounds like; the tenor and the rhythm. If/when the pattern breaks, I know there is a problem, often before they realize it. Don't be so "broke" that you can't pay attention.

Surely if they can avoid running out of petrol they can avoid running out of air, and don’t hold your breath when going up is a very simple instruction, like I said the risks in diving are easily avoided and a lot less dangerous than everyday living for a lot of people.

Until the panic sets in. Training and situational awareness goes out the window with the onset of panic. Set your limits. Honor your limits. Most people get into trouble when they "push" their limits. It's a huge ocean. You're not going to see it all in dive. Don't even try.

 

[kaylee_ann]

I'm not sure I understand the question? Would I go back to Cayman Brac to go diving? Hell yeah. Why not? At 65 with an iffy back and an aluminum plate in my leg that attracts kicks and bumps, would I try to dive more than 5 foot seas? Probably not. My limitations are not your limitations.

But they might lack the strength or stamina...

Isn't "industry conventional wisdom" an oxymoron??? Not all dive instructors are equal. Some present diving as a set of instructions to follow: no thinking necessary. Others take the time to elucidate on the whys and wherefores. I'm not referring to boastful tales of daring dos that some instructors love to give, but real insights into the Zen of diving.

I'm so disappointed that you left off split fins.

It shouldn't have to scream. When I went through my IDC, one of my (de)mentors was Reggie Ross. An amazing cave diver, he always referred to using his "spidey sense". Well over 20 years later and that concept of ultra situational awareness sticks with me. It's as simple as keeping track of your buddy by knowing what their breathing sounds like; the tenor and the rhythm. If/when the pattern breaks, I know there is a problem, often before they realize it. Don't be so "broke" that you can't pay attention.

Until the panic sets in. Training and situational awareness goes out the window with the onset of panic. Set your limits. Honor your limits. Most people get into trouble when they "push" their limits. It's a huge ocean. You're not going to see it all in dive. Don't even try.

Why were people mad at you for saying you want to dive there eventually

 

[rob.mwpropane]

I'm not sure I understand the question? Would I go back to Cayman Brac to go diving? Hell yeah. Why not? At 65 with an iffy back and an aluminum plate in my leg that attracts kicks and bumps, would I try to dive more than 5 foot seas? Probably not. My limitations are not your limitations.

But they might lack the strength or stamina...

Isn't "industry conventional wisdom" an oxymoron??? Not all dive instructors are equal. Some present diving as a set of instructions to follow: no thinking necessary. Others take the time to elucidate on the whys and wherefores. I'm not referring to boastful tales of daring dos that some instructors love to give, but real insights into the Zen of diving.

I'm so disappointed that you left off split fins.

It shouldn't have to scream. When I went through my IDC, one of my (de)mentors was Reggie Ross. An amazing cave diver, he always referred to using his "spidey sense". Well over 20 years later and that concept of ultra situational awareness sticks with me. It's as simple as keeping track of your buddy by knowing what their breathing sounds like; the tenor and the rhythm. If/when the pattern breaks, I know there is a problem, often before they realize it. Don't be so "broke" that you can't pay attention.

Until the panic sets in. Training and situational awareness goes out the window with the onset of panic. Set your limits. Honor your limits. Most people get into trouble when they "push" their limits. It's a huge ocean. You're not going to see it all in dive. Don't even try.

Screaming, whispering, spidey tingle... whatever you want to call it. Its definitely there.

I actually had "spidey sense" typed out in my earlier post but deleted it, lol.

 

[Celt]

Until the panic sets in. Training and situational awareness goes out the window with the onset of panic. Set your limits. Honor your limits. Most people get into trouble when they "push" their limits. It's a huge ocean. You're not going to see it all in dive. Don't even try.
[/QUOTE]
Training and practice will bring confidence and ability to handle a situation without panic. But of course your right it comes with time spent in the water. For new divers the more they enjoy diving the more they go out and experience new situations and gain experience. And like you say the way to enjoy diving is to take it at your own pace and comfort.

 

[Blackcrusader]

But they might lack the strength or stamina...

I know mine strength is not what is was. I work out on a rowing machine in my office everyday and do morning walks up mountain trails with my dog in the mornings and I'm feeling it. That's why I go with the currents and not against them if they are too strong. It's why I like fast drift dives I can go with the flow. My last serious against the current dives I still was doing better than a lot of younger vacation divers but that I think was more down to technique, knowing when to rest and where to get behind a large fan or outcrop to rest a bit while the younger divers blew air exerting themselves constantly without resting.

My limits are less than before so I plan to dive a lot in very slow currents most of the time. This is me filming my buddy and the speed I like to go at. We get to take photos of a lot more things by going slowly. In fact diving should be a race to being the slowest in the water not setting time trials between a and b.

 

[drrich2]

Not only is narcosis noticeable but is easily dealt with by decreasing your depth, do adults know when they drink to much? Surely if they can avoid running out of petrol they can avoid running out of air, and don’t hold your breath when going up is a very simple instruction, like I said the risks in diving are easily avoided and a lot less dangerous than everyday living for a lot of people.

Sometimes noticeable, but I've seen enough reports on ScubaBoard of narc.'d people who didn't know it at the time to be wary. Some people know when they're drinking too much, and some don't. I agree they can avoid running out of air, but some still do, so putting emphasis on checking pressure in the early stages of diving isn't a bad thing. Don't hold your breath going up is indeed a very simple instruction, but a freaked out, task-loaded diver distracted with his situation may not even think of it. He should...but may not.

In addition to experience and training, natural aptitude counts for something. Human beings are self-referential, prone to unconsciously project their own capabilities onto others. We also exist on a 'bell curve' of aptitudes for various things. I had a friend and dive buddy years ago who's situational awareness and aptitude for gaining diving skill (and swimming into current) were much better than mine. My ineptitude in some things he was good at seemed to puzzle him at times.

In terms of perceptiveness, situational awareness, the ability to remain calm and quickly synthesize info., etc..., there's a range on that bell curve. Recommendations for caution are often formed mindful of people on the 'wrong side of the bell.'

TLDR: It may work for you, but I think some newer divers ought not to have your level of confidence, at least until experience validates it for them.