Relative risk in diving

[kaylee_ann]

A few mantras come into my mind here...

A diver has to know their limitations.​

Plan as if your life depended on it.​

Dive and let dive!​

Diving is all about limits. We usually set three on every dive (time, depth, & gas) and often overlook others such as conditions, training, skill, and stamina. It's my belief that the most important rule in diving is that you can call a dive at any time, for any reason, and with no questions asked. I also believe that the best time to call a dive is before you get wet.

Unfortunately, planning seldom seems to address those limitations adequately. Many (most???) divers plan their dives as if nothing will go wrong. Sure, you get an education in not doing that here on SB as we kibitz about others exceeding their limits and the aftermath that comes with that. Still, most divers splash hoping nothing happens, and every successful dive increases their over-confidence until it doesn't.

That over-confidence often gets expressed here. It also often gets challenged here. Unfortunately, that sometimes results in feelings getting hurt. An anecdote: before I was full cave, I posted here on SB my desire to do the "Grand Traverse" at Peacock Springs near where I live. Boy did I catch hell for that and rightly so. Meh, so I waited till I was fully qualified to do it and had a great time doing it with @tbone1004. A few people were appalled at some of the comments leveled at me, but not me. Feedback, even harsh feedback, is a bonus. Like antiseptic on a wound, it might sting a bit, but there is almost always a nugget of truth to learn in criticisms. Candidly, there's often a whole mine full in there, so swallow your pride and learn something.

Edit: The Grand Traverse is an almost mile long journey underground. There are a few karst openings where you can do the "walk of shame", but it's not that hard to complete if you plan adequately and keep to the plan.

what's the problem with wanting to eventually go there? unless you said you wanted to dive it at that time...but I don't see the issue in having a long term goal, ya know?

 

[kaylee_ann]

…feel the same way x100. I drive 50 miles a day on I 95…unless I take the train, and then I have other risks, namely the other riders. I feel safer under water.

95 is nuts. I haven't driven the stretch in FL, but I have in MA/CT/NY, and it's crazy. people regularly go 25 over the speed limit and cut you off. it might be 55mph but they drive it like its 70/80.

 

[Blackcrusader]

My post was not to raise risk awareness. Rather, it was to highlight to we all have our own tolerance and that we should not judge based on our bias unless there is a clear case of lack of experience/ training. Enjoy your solo dives .

Some people have all the training and lack experience. Other divers have the experience without all the training.
A lot have the training and the experience over many years of diving. It takes years to get both really and you cannot rush the time and numbers of dives it takes to get there. My tolerance is that I love being in the water diving. Once I am in the water all the certifications mean nothing they are just required for the dive center when you sign those waivers lol.

Every dive is just a solo dive with some other people around and a lot of them will not even be very close to me anyway as they are doing their own thing. When diving I usually stay at the end of a group. The DM's / guides know I will come along slowly and if they are 25m ahead of me that's no big deal. Vacation dive buddies some will stay with me some will just be closer to the guide.

When I was in the BSAC Club I was the assigned person on the boat for one day to decide dive sites. We got to one dive site and I decided to call the dive, not just for me but for all the divers. This was because I decided the current was too difficult for my limited experience to deal with.
The other divers were trying to tell me it's OK you can handle it. I knew I would have struggled and I was already anxious before even kitting up. When your mind is saying don't do this then don't do it. We drove the boat to another location where conditions were much easier to dive. This is how it works in a BSAC club it does not matter the cert level or experience of other divers when the assigned person makes the decision everyone else has to accept it. I've declined dives after flying overseas to get to a dive vacation and decided that a particular dive was not for me.

 

[Akimbo]

Man, this is extreme . Who in his/ her right senses would go at sea in those conditions?

Pretty much everyone that works in the North Sea including fisherman, various navies, and offshore oil workers. I have seen green water breaking over the helipad that was 135'/41M above mean low water. Swells slapping the bottom of the lower decks of platforms was pretty common, 60'/18M measured by draft marks.

Of course your "right senses" qualifier might be applicable.

 

[happy-diver]

Yes I've found a few relatives that introduce unnecessary anxiety with compulsory regular phone calls
Somewhat similar to phone conversations Det Prendergast had with his neurotic wife in Falling Down
Questionable advice, from those with a different skill set and understanding, adds doubt and danger.

 

[Celt]

Recreational diving is practically risk free with simple training. New divers imagination mostly, narcosis will steal away their ability to think, the air will disappear from their tanks if they don’t watch it constantly, their heads will blow up if they need to get to the surface quickly. The new one is the air will get so thick you can’t breathe or CO2 will kill you. There’s a lot of hype in scuba. At the same time they don’t mind passing within feet doing a hundred miles an hour in a tin box.

 

[dmaziuk]

Add:
- If you're over 50 your chances of a heart attack are drastically different above and below water,
-- even more so if you're underwater alone.
- IPE is out to get you.

 

[kaylee_ann]

Recreational diving is practically risk free with simple training. New divers imagination mostly, narcosis will steal away their ability to think, the air will disappear from their tanks if they don’t watch it constantly, their heads will blow up if they need to get to the surface quickly. The new one is the air will get so thick you can’t breathe or CO2 will kill you. There’s a lot of hype in scuba. At the same time they don’t mind passing within feet doing a hundred miles an hour in a tin box.

they fail to use critical thinking. lol. like, people hear about risks and grossly over-exaggerate them. then fail to realize those risks easily are avoided by knowing how to dive safely and reduce them.

 

[drrich2]

they fail to use critical thinking.

Often they (new divers) don't have a choice. I'll use some examples from mac64, who you replied to.

1.) Until they get first hand experience with a sizable number of deep dives, they don't know their personal susceptibility to inert gas narcosis, and since it varies in an individual over time and often people who are impaired don't realize it, it takes experience to get a sense of what one's limitations are (or at least that they don't appear to come into play during the diving you've done).

2.) Their heads won't explode if they surface quickly, but lung expansion injuries, arterial gas embolism and barotrauma are significant risks.

3.) The air can indeed disappear from their tanks if not watched adequately ('constantly' is over-selling it). Underwater there's a lot of mental task loading and there are distractions. For a newbie, that's a lot to deal with. And if you haven't dove enough to have an intuitive sense of your gas consumption rate tends to run and conditions impact it, it's quite possible to get a nasty surprise.

like, people hear about risks and grossly over-exaggerate them.

When people come into the recreational dive hobby, they start out with a set of seemingly arbitrary recommendations based on industry conventional wisdom that work well for the large majority of divers. Such as...

1.) Don't dive solo.
2.) Don't go over 60 feet deep to start; advance through formal training, mentorship or gradually through experience.
3.) Avoid overhead environments, hard (e.g.: cavern) or soft (e.g.: deco. obligations).
4.) Don't go over 130 feet deep without technical training and setup.
5.) Don't dive in caves unless and until formally trained and certified to do so.

That doesn't mean nobody can dive solo (I do), that dipping a few feet deeper than 130 on a Belize Blue Hole deep dive is instantly fatal (I did), swim throughs will kill you, etc...

But it's a good starting point. And when new divers progress to the point where they ask questions about the 'rules' of scuba diving and how rigidly adherent they need to be, a cautious approach is warranted.

Many of the things we consider unacceptably risky in topside life are survived by most people exposed to them. Asbestos in the walls probably won't kill everyone in the building. Some people can routinely drive 80-mph in a 55-mph zone. And so on.

There's value in some of our controversies and debates on ScubaBoard. Let's say you often do 150-foot deep air dives and handle the deco. obligations without having had any formal technical dive training. Okay. You do you. But if someone criticizes your practice as risky, at least that might signal less experienced divers that what you're doing is a bit 'fringe.'

Years ago, I was surprised when a poster shared a video of himself doing a really deep air solo penetration dive into a famous wreck (which sounded to me dangerously reckless), and got practically no push back. I asked about this, discussion ensured, and it turns out this guy was one of the extremely accomplished, famous scuba 'greats.' In a nutshell, he knew what he was doing. Which is fine, but I had no idea then who this guy was, and I imagine most newer divers wouldn't, either. If they find that old thread, they'll see his dive was conducted in the context of great knowledge, skill and experience.

then fail to realize those risks easily are avoided by knowing how to dive safely and reduce them.

To paraphrase the old G.I. Joe cartoons, knowing is half the battle...but it's not all of it. The underwater environment with scuba puts a task load on our minds that may not be appreciated until we're caught by surprise in an anxiety-provoking situation, and discover using what we know to effectively problem solve is suddenly harder to do.

I think this discussion of relative risk and the dangers of recreational diving is arguing shades of gray amidst nuance. None of us thinks it's perfectly safe or (conducted properly) horribly dangerous. I think an attitude of caution is warranted.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Humans possess an amazing alacrity to justify bad decisions, especially if they've spent a lot of money and traveled many a mile to go diving. The winds that week were 20 to 25 knots with gusts much higher. Unless I'm being paid, my max is 10 or so with a max wave height of 5. This decreases with any injury. Yes, there were a number of minor injuries that week. Know your limitations and honor them. This should include a sober assessment of your decision making skills.

I had talked to the guy who injured his spine before the boat went out. He dismissed it all as a "little wind", and said he wasn't going to wuss out over it. Regrettably, he left in a back brace and had to endure a brutal flight in a small plane to get to medical care. I also remember the captain saying that you wouldn't catch him trying to dive this, which is always a good indication for me. If at any point the captain gives you an out: TAKE IT! These guys are pros and will often go out if you really want to go. They usually don't get paid if you don't dive, so don't expect them to be anything but subtle. Many divers simply assume that if the boat is going out then all is optimal. Nothing could be further from the truth and you need to realize that the boat's limits and your limits are not the same, nor do they serve the same purpose. You're better dry than sorry.

If I'm diving, the first thing I do when I wake is to try and equalize my ears. Why get out of bed if your ears are not going to allow you to dive? Then, before breakfast, I check my Ventusky app for the weather and wave heights. It gives me an hourly assessment, so I can see if diving will be good in the am or pm, should I get to choose. If I'm diving, then conditions will likely dictate what, how much, and how fast I eat. This also gives me a chance to figure out alternate activities if diving is out. Ventusky has saved my bacon many, many times. Yesterday, I was asked to go kayaking, but a quick glance showed me that I would be fighting the wind. As the Suwanee is pretty wide where I live, giving little protection, I opted out. My would be buddy complained how awful it was, and was surprised that I knew it would be. It looks better today, so I might be headed out in a few. Situational awareness, along with knowing as well as honoring your limits is a good habit for most every activity.

I agree with all that. I do the best I can to plan dives and trips. I'll plan the wreck, the times, the parking, the food, all of it.. but when the captain or the weather says no I think well I did my best and that's that. Just wasn't meant to be. If something for some reason is screaming not to go there has to be a reason for it. I try really hard to listen to that voice. The older I get the clearer that voice gets.