Actually it would be between your lungs and the regulator diaphram. Your mouth does not perform the work of breathing. AND, the answer is still NO, while there are regulators that attempt to mimimise this natural phenomena none eliminate it. N
Regulator that breathes good in all directions?
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Actually it would be between your lungs and the regulator diaphram. Your mouth does not perform the work of breathing. AND, the answer is still NO, while there are regulators that attempt to mimimise this natural phenomena none eliminate it. N
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Total effort, you are right. The small additional effort that is noticed (and is what we are talking about here) is the inch or two of additional pressure head that results from looking up. The "CalypsoPack" damn near eliminated it, but on single hose can eliminate it, side breathers reduce it.
I used to think that, but lately I am thinking that the vertical distance to the ears (where we feel pressure) is the important distance when it comes to how the performance of a regulator feels.
The distance to the lungs is still important for the actual WOB, but not for the actual feeling.
I wrote this recently at the VintageScubaSupply.com message board.
Again the diagram is overly simplified, but it is a starting point.
I always like this diagram even dough it is a bit simplified.
But, lately I have been developing a theory that location of the lungs in the water column is important since that is where the “work of breathing” is performed, but the sensation is actually perceived at the ears (where we sense pressure).
I am starting to believe that the sensation if a regulator breaths hard is driven by the vertical distance from the regulator diaphragm to the ears not the lungs. In contrast the fatigue or tiredness from actual breathing underwater is driven by the distance to the lungs.
My knowledge of physiology is very limited, so I have been trying to discuss this with other more knowledgeable people in the field, but I haven’t spent enough time to make much progress.
I did talk briefly with Dr. Richard Vann after a presentation he made on re-breather, where he showed a similar looking graph, but instead of a regulator diaphragm it tried to display the ideal position for re-breather counter- lungs. With time I hope to locate more related research done on re-breathers, etc.
My point is that based on observations (of mine and comments from other divers), and the little bit of physiology I know, it seams logical that even though the work is done at the lungs the sensation of hard breathing is sensed at the ears.
IMHO this theory would explain many of the comments I hear from both single hose divers and double hose divers.
I have also played a number of times by breathed with double hose on a tank in front of me, just holding it with my hands and moving up and down relative to my lungs and ears. This test is best done with your eyes closed, since our perception is easily influenced by many factors including preconceptions (in general, we are horrible instruments).
This is just a theory, but again I think it explains many observations. Hopefully I will get to discuss it with an ex-Navy diving doctor friend of mine or others that have done related research in the near future.
Again the diagram is overly simplified, but it is a starting point.
I always like this diagram even dough it is a bit simplified.
But, lately I have been developing a theory that location of the lungs in the water column is important since that is where the “work of breathing” is performed, but the sensation is actually perceived at the ears (where we sense pressure).
I am starting to believe that the sensation if a regulator breaths hard is driven by the vertical distance from the regulator diaphragm to the ears not the lungs. In contrast the fatigue or tiredness from actual breathing underwater is driven by the distance to the lungs.
My knowledge of physiology is very limited, so I have been trying to discuss this with other more knowledgeable people in the field, but I haven’t spent enough time to make much progress.
I did talk briefly with Dr. Richard Vann after a presentation he made on re-breather, where he showed a similar looking graph, but instead of a regulator diaphragm it tried to display the ideal position for re-breather counter- lungs. With time I hope to locate more related research done on re-breathers, etc.
My point is that based on observations (of mine and comments from other divers), and the little bit of physiology I know, it seams logical that even though the work is done at the lungs the sensation of hard breathing is sensed at the ears.
IMHO this theory would explain many of the comments I hear from both single hose divers and double hose divers.
I have also played a number of times by breathed with double hose on a tank in front of me, just holding it with my hands and moving up and down relative to my lungs and ears. This test is best done with your eyes closed, since our perception is easily influenced by many factors including preconceptions (in general, we are horrible instruments).
This is just a theory, but again I think it explains many observations. Hopefully I will get to discuss it with an ex-Navy diving doctor friend of mine or others that have done related research in the near future.
Well, that is a hypothesis we have discussed and I don't doubt that the ears play some role in percieved effort of breathing but (always a "but") I will stay with the more classic theory as being more determinate to the actual work of breathing.
Thal, I understand what your saying and your observations are good but still it is bertween your lungs/and your diaphram and the diaphram of the regulator that the pressure differential is generally greatest--positive or negative (or even neutral) depending upon their positions relative to one another.
N
I agree that the work is done at the lungs (by the muscles surrounding the chest cavity and the abdominal diaphragm), I said so above, but the sensation of regulator performance is better explained by the fact that we sense pressure at the ears.
Work of breathing is obviously important, but IMHO just as important is sensation of breathing effort. So far the best explanation to our sensations of breathing from any regulator seems to be that we feel pressure and suction at the ear level.
These observations seam to apply to all types of regulators:
• Front diaphragm single hose (most common single hose regulator)
• Side diaphragm single hose (Poseidon style)
• Diaphragm against chin (D400 style)
• Conventionally mounted double hose
• Chest mounted double hose (Cousteau/ Calypso Hydro-dynamic suit)
I have tried all off the above and (as I mentioned) I have also tested it a few times by changing the vertical position of a double hose regulator in front of me. You probably did it too at Wazee a couple of years ago, when we did the side by side testing of multiple double hose on pony bottles.
We are just talking about the difference between sensation and actual work. They are both important.
Work of breathing is obviously important, but IMHO just as important is sensation of breathing effort. So far the best explanation to our sensations of breathing from any regulator seems to be that we feel pressure and suction at the ear level.
These observations seam to apply to all types of regulators:
• Front diaphragm single hose (most common single hose regulator)
• Side diaphragm single hose (Poseidon style)
• Diaphragm against chin (D400 style)
• Conventionally mounted double hose
• Chest mounted double hose (Cousteau/ Calypso Hydro-dynamic suit)
I have tried all off the above and (as I mentioned) I have also tested it a few times by changing the vertical position of a double hose regulator in front of me. You probably did it too at Wazee a couple of years ago, when we did the side by side testing of multiple double hose on pony bottles.
We are just talking about the difference between sensation and actual work. They are both important.
bperrybap
Contributor
On my regulator it is not a small difference when looking up.
The increased effort is more than just perceived or noticeable.
I have an Aeris Atmos sport regulator.
If I am head up feet down vertical in the water, the more
I look up it will progressively get harder and harder to breath
up to the final point where no amount of sucking will pull in any air.
It is no different than being out of air or trying to breath with the
valve cranked off.
The shallower the water the more pronounced the effect.
All other positions I can breath ok, including flat on my back.
(although some tend to breath a bit wet)
--- bill
The increased effort is more than just perceived or noticeable.
I have an Aeris Atmos sport regulator.
If I am head up feet down vertical in the water, the more
I look up it will progressively get harder and harder to breath
up to the final point where no amount of sucking will pull in any air.
It is no different than being out of air or trying to breath with the
valve cranked off.
The shallower the water the more pronounced the effect.
All other positions I can breath ok, including flat on my back.
(although some tend to breath a bit wet)
--- bill
I don't know about all the other stuff, but I breathe a SB R390 and R190 both with MK16 1sts. I have used both of these regs to a max depth of ~180fsw. No difference in breathing regardless of orientation up to and including upside down. No wet breathing on either reg, no change in breathing effort at any depth.
The last two post is a perfect example of the biggest difficulty encountered when testing a regulator (or any other equipment highly involved with a human interface).
The two regulators may perform somewhat different, but they are both working in the same water column environment and both are affected by differential pressures. IMHO the biggest difference between the two is that two different individuals are testing them (and no calibrated instrumentation was used).
We are all different and some of us are very sensitive to small changes while some of us are not. Our perception is not only different from person to person, but it can change from one day to the next (or it can be influenced by many factors).
This is why human factors engineering is such a difficult science. Blind test are often performed in order to eliminate some of the biased perceptions that we all have, but even that is not very reliable.
When I was testing a double hose regulator in front of me while I was raising it and lowering, I tried it keeping my eyes closed, but as a human I am aware that I am not a calibrated instrument.
Oh …by the way…any instrument can introduce their own set of errors that have to be accounted for, but that is whole different subject.
The two regulators may perform somewhat different, but they are both working in the same water column environment and both are affected by differential pressures. IMHO the biggest difference between the two is that two different individuals are testing them (and no calibrated instrumentation was used).
We are all different and some of us are very sensitive to small changes while some of us are not. Our perception is not only different from person to person, but it can change from one day to the next (or it can be influenced by many factors).
This is why human factors engineering is such a difficult science. Blind test are often performed in order to eliminate some of the biased perceptions that we all have, but even that is not very reliable.
When I was testing a double hose regulator in front of me while I was raising it and lowering, I tried it keeping my eyes closed, but as a human I am aware that I am not a calibrated instrument.
Oh …by the way…any instrument can introduce their own set of errors that have to be accounted for, but that is whole different subject.
I would notice a difference. N
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