Regulator service: acceptable treatment?

[The Chairman]

You have put in much effort to make your board more appealing to entities that make $$$ through scuba.

I have. I have also put "much effort" into making SB appealing to divers who spend the money. Can you imagine what nefarious intents I must have up my sleeve to make SB appealing to everyone! Oh my! Oh the drama in the making! Someone call the Scuba Inquisition!

:sinq:
​

Making money on your services is as American as Apple Pie. The shop does it. I do it. You probably do it too, although I doubt you'll admit to that. When a mistake is made, it's not always about dishonesty. I get your need to eviscerate every dive shop that makes a mistake by telling the world how corrupt they must be, but in reality, it was probably a simple communications error. Yeah, I get that doesn't meet your drama quotient for the thread, but don't most issues boil down to just simple misunderstandings? Why complicate it further? Oh, I also get the need for posturing on the interwebs. There seems to be an inherent need among a few posters to show the world that YOUR standards are simply the best and that you only have the best interest of the readers in mind when you say things that must be said. Shenanigans. It's my humble opinion that the overly negative people of the world and that would include you, are that way simply to feed their ego. I could be wrong, but that's my heart felt opinion. I think you have a right to express that opinion just as I have the right to point out that I disagree with it. Of course, the best defense is a good offense, so you counter that by suggesting that I do this out of greed. You're not out for the truth: you're out to protect your ego. Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something.

Here's the truth, as I see it. The OP was clearly frustrated by the LDS and he should be. No one wants a bill higher than they were expecting. Several people have judged this LDS to be dishonest and he has come out a few times indicating he does not feel this is the case. A few people, such as yourself, are doing their level best to convince the OP that this is indeed fraud and that the dive shop in question is as dishonest as the day is long all based on the fact that you think this is true. Shenanigans. Next, you'll be advising him to contact the FBI's fraud squad and get this LDS shut down quick before cats start cohabiting with dogs and the world, as we know it, comes to an end.

Communication is a two way street. If I bring in my regs and tell the man to service it, I might be thinking one thing and he's thinking another. I'm thinking that I want it cleaned and new o-rings and seals installed and he's thinking that he needs to make it completely safe. It only makes sense to get your expectations down in writing with clear instructions on how to contact you if it exceeds $X before you leave. It's just that simple. Many shops, not just LDSes, have this problem and I've seen the "Misunderstanding Dance" happen all over the place. That's why if I don't have anything in writing, I come in prepared to pay a bigger bill. I just had my bicycle serviced at the local shop here in Key Largo. I asked them to replace the innertubes and take care of the chain. I was thinking that they would be cleaning and oiling the chain, but when I picked it up, I had a brand new chain. Rather than berate the guy, I simply thanked him. He brought out the old chain and showed me places where the links had jammed together. When I finally got on the bike, I was surprised at how much better it peddled. I would recommend that shop in a heart beat if you want your bike in tip top shape. BTW, I could have done all that myself, but I just didn't feel like it. I'm glad I was being lazy.

 

[KD8NPB]

The only thing I can see wrong is that they did not contact you before providing additional services.

Replacing cracked rubber is standard operating procedure...if you want to put the bad hose back on, that's on you, but it's not leaving the shop with a failed component on it.

 

[vondo]

I just had my bicycle serviced at the local shop here in Key Largo. I asked them to replace the innertubes and take care of the chain. I was thinking that they would be cleaning and oiling the chain, but when I picked it up, I had a brand new chain. Rather than berate the guy, I simply thanked him. He brought out the old chain and showed me places where the links had jammed together. When I finally got on the bike, I was surprised at how much better it peddled. I would recommend that shop in a heart beat if you want your bike in tip top shape. BTW, I could have done all that myself, but I just didn't feel like it. I'm glad I was being lazy.

As someone who is also a bicycler .... Checking and replacing the chain is a very important part of keeping your bike running smoothly and not damaging it. Your chain stretches and when it does it starts to wear down other, much more expensive components. Think of it like an oil change. You replace it every 1-2K miles even if all the links are moving freely. But when I bring my bike in for service, they immediately measure the chain and we decide if I need a new one that year or not and I go pick one out.

The parallels are pretty obvious. "Take care of the chain" in bike maintenance parlance means more or less "annual service" in scuba parlance. But, like you, I didn't know if "annual service" meant "replace any sub-standard parts without asking" or not, so I came by to ask. Your bike shop should probably have helped you pick out a new chain when you came in, but you did need one. Same as my hose.

 

[KD8NPB]

\
I did read what the OP posted and he says the shop told him the hose was leaking. He never said he knew it was leaking. I did not really object to the $40 charge for the hose and mouthpiece but it is on the bery high side of reasonable. I'm sure I could shop around and replace those thinga at half that price. Perhaps the difference is the shop's 100% markup.

Apeks mouthpieces are like $10. BC hose is about $28. Add tax.

Plenty of failed hoses don't leak. I've seen some with the outer rubber completely torn away and they still don't leak.

The objective is to replace them before they experience a failure.

(Also, most people don't do proper bubble checks)

 

[redacted]

I have. I have also put "much effort" into making SB appealing to divers who spend the money. Can you imagine what nefarious intents I must have up my sleeve to make SB appealing to everyone! Oh my! Oh the drama in the making! Someone call the Scuba Inquisition!

:sinq:
​

Making money on your services is as American as Apple Pie. The shop does it. I do it. You probably do it too, although I doubt you'll admit to that. When a mistake is made, it's not always about dishonesty. I get your need to eviscerate every dive shop that makes a mistake by telling the world how corrupt they must be, but in reality, it was probably a simple communications error. Yeah, I get that doesn't meet your drama quotient for the thread, but don't most issues boil down to just simple misunderstandings? Why complicate it further? Oh, I also get the need for posturing on the interwebs. There seems to be an inherent need among a few posters to show the world that YOUR standards are simply the best and that you only have the best interest of the readers in mind when you say things that must be said. Shenanigans. It's my humble opinion that the overly negative people of the world and that would include you, are that way simply to feed their ego. I could be wrong, but that's my heart felt opinion. I think you have a right to express that opinion just as I have the right to point out that I disagree with it. Of course, the best defense is a good offense, so you counter that by suggesting that I do this out of greed. You're not out for the truth: you're out to protect your ego. Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something.

Here's the truth, as I see it. The OP was clearly frustrated by the LDS and he should be. No one wants a bill higher than they were expecting. Several people have judged this LDS to be dishonest and he has come out a few times indicating he does not feel this is the case. A few people, such as yourself, are doing their level best to convince the OP that this is indeed fraud and that the dive shop in question is as dishonest as the day is long all based on the fact that you think this is true. Shenanigans. Next, you'll be advising him to contact the FBI's fraud squad and get this LDS shut down quick before cats start cohabiting with dogs and the world, as we know it, comes to an end.

Communication is a two way street. If I bring in my regs and tell the man to service it, I might be thinking one thing and he's thinking another. I'm thinking that I want it cleaned and new o-rings and seals installed and he's thinking that he needs to make it completely safe. It only makes sense to get your expectations down in writing with clear instructions on how to contact you if it exceeds $X before you leave. It's just that simple. Many shops, not just LDSes, have this problem and I've seen the "Misunderstanding Dance" happen all over the place. That's why if I don't have anything in writing, I come in prepared to pay a bigger bill. I just had my bicycle serviced at the local shop here in Key Largo. I asked them to replace the innertubes and take care of the chain. I was thinking that they would be cleaning and oiling the chain, but when I picked it up, I had a brand new chain. Rather than berate the guy, I simply thanked him. He brought out the old chain and showed me places where the links had jammed together. When I finally got on the bike, I was surprised at how much better it peddled. I would recommend that shop in a heart beat if you want your bike in tip top shape. BTW, I could have done all that myself, but I just didn't feel like it. I'm glad I was being lazy.

I went back and reread every one of my posts in this thread and I never said any such thing. I did question the OP as to the reason for the extra cleaning charge (my primary concern) and the hose replacement (post # 20). In post # 23, I acknowledged that cleaning should be a part of the service but additional charges might be warranted in extreme cases. Then, in post # 30, you say "Kudos to the shop for finding the leaky hose", which I see as nothing more than the shop doing there basic regulator service job. And things when downhill from there.

I never accused the shop of being dishonest or fraudulent. I guess even written communications can be misunderstood by some.

 

[Colliam7]

The parallels are pretty obvious. "Take care of the chain" in bike maintenance parlance means more or less "annual service" in scuba parlance. But, like you, I didn't know if "annual service" meant "replace any sub-standard parts without asking" or not, so I came by to ask. Your bike shop should probably have helped you pick out a new chain when you came in, but you did need one. Same as my hose.

Great analogy! I just took one of my bicycles in for 'annual service'. While I was there, the tech put it on the stand, inspected the chain, sprockets, etc.,, and told me I needed a new chain, and what that would cost, and a new rear sprocket assembly, and what that would cost. I left knowing what the bill would be when I picked it up the next week. That is good business practice.

Now, in fairness to dive shops, in many situations regulator service is done on a periodic basis by a contractor. So, the tech who did the service at the shop you used may not have been on site when you brought the regulator in. But, I still think a call was warranted (and I very much appreciate the issue of making certain that reliable contact information is obtained before a service customer leaves the shop) before the hose was replaced.

 

[ams511]

And I'm reasonable, but apparently that's too much to ask from you.

If you only own a hammer, the entire world becomes a nail. The issue at hand is one of communication and not about the LDS being unfair or dishonest. Why couch every situation in only those terms?

How am I unreasonable? Because I disagree with you? In a relationship communication is a two-way street but in a business relationship it is not. The responsibility for good communication rests with the vendor of the service. It is he that should outline what services to be performed and their cost. If their are additional charges over the estimate then the client should be contacted over a preset amount.

You claim it is a communication issue but I disagree. The dive shop doesn't want to give the customer a chance to say no. They know that once the repairs are made the client has no choice than to pay in order to get the regulator back. In this case it was a hose and a mouthpiece that what if it was something that cannot be removed easily like a piston?

Going back to an automotive analogy. A regulator service is like bringing in 70s vintage car for a tune-up. You expect the plugs, points, and condenser to be replaced maybe some of the fluids if you purchased a more upscale package. However, you would not expect tires to be replaced because they are bald without the owner's consent.

As for the prices the hose is about 25% more than the price from DGX and the mouthpiece is 3-6X the price from DGX depending on what the OP received.

---------- Post added April 2nd, 2014 at 08:16 AM ----------

Now, in fairness to dive shops, in many situations regulator service is done on a periodic basis by a contractor. So, the tech who did the service at the shop you used may not have been on site when you brought the regulator in. But, I still think a call was warranted (and I very much appreciate the issue of making certain that reliable contact information is obtained before a service customer leaves the shop) before the hose was replaced.

This is part of the problem. Unless you are dealing with a one-man operation in general you do not speak directly to the tech when you drop off a regulator. The tech could be a part-timer, independent contractor or the service could be outsourced. I am sure Netdoc would disagree, but I believe the shop should disclose if they send the regulator somewhere else for service. I could just as easily send the regulator out for service especially if I need to drive a significant distance to the shop.

 

[Pavao]

So what do you call it when a shop buys a hose for $15 and sells it for $30? Markup (business) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, car and appliance shops scare me a lot less than dive shops. But they are usually run by businessmen.

Man, my car started to overheat and I was forced to tow it, it was at night and I towed it to a chain tire/lube/service type place, left it there and called them first thing in the morning, explained what was happening and gave them authorization to diagnose and quote me the service. He called me back fairly quick, said I needed new fan/thermostat/water pump, total for parts and labor was just under $1600, I told them to hold of.
I called at least 6 other places, non chain, small owner operated little shops, this was all sitting on my couch, from home, through the phone, all of them quoted me the same to change all 3 things, between $450 - $600!

The one I chose, sent a tow truck to pick up my car, paid the estimate service at the chain place, paid the tow truck and drove the car to my house when it was done, total was under $350. In the end, the fan was perfectly fine, and still is today, more than a year later.

-----------------x------------------x----------------x------------------x--------------

Here's another case, this one is just great!
Car also overheating, on a Sunday, I found a small little place just before the end of the day, guy thought it could be a faulty thermostat, so he removed it to test it, fast forward to Monday, I bring the car to the dealer, still not running properly.
The guy in charge there, which happened to be the one who received the car from me, brought his slate with all the paper work needed for the job, I then start explaining everything that is going on with the car so that he can write this down on the appropriate parts of the form that is later relayed to the mechanic assigned to work with the car, and at some point we get to the thermostat, I explained what we did (remove it) to test it, that's when he stops me and goes over and over about how I should have not done that, it's bad for the car, that was a bad idea, he goes on and on about it. We finish the paper work, he advises me an estimate is $175 (which I already knew) and I agreed to it.
Service van brought me home, I filled the cooler with beer and went to the pool, as I was told this was gonna take all day, before I could even drink half the first beer the phone rings, it's the guy, he tells me they can't perform the diagnostics because the car has no thermostat and it would interfere with the readings on the computer, (I'm thinking, why didn't you tell me that when I told you it had NO thermostat) and says they need to put a thermostat in first before they can continue, $185.
A thermostat only costs about $15 I think, and all you need to do is unplug a hose, put thermostat in place, plug hose back in, done.
I said no, don't do the thermostat, I'm on my way, I'll take the car, put a thermostat in and bring the car right back so you can continue, it will only be 30 minutes total, he says sure, no problem, it will be $175. Me ???? For what? For the service he says, and I'm like, what service????

The guy got pretty furious when I asked him what the charge was for, since nothing was ever done in the car, he couldn't explain why I was being charged $175.
It was actually funny the exchange we had:

Him - $175 for the diagnostics estimate
Me - So, what's the results, what's wrong with the car?
Him - There's no thermostat
Me - I know there's no thermostat, I told you that, we talked about it, you're charging me $175 to tell me something I told you in the first place?
Him - We can't do the diagnostics because there's no thermostat
Me - So, why are you charging me $175?
Him - ...

 

[Peter69_56]

Been there and know exactly what you are talking about.

This is my issue with those in the dive industry who rip people off. They are there and seem to continue to exist. They make it bad for the industry.

The sad part is that those in the industry who do a great job feel hurt when they hear these stories, even though its not a reflection on their ethics or work. It upsets them, however they must accept that its there. How to clean it up, now that's the real question. I don't go by price or by work quality, its a combination of both. If we ask for a cheap job, expect one. If I pay for a quality job you better realise I expect quality work.

 

[gopbroek]

Many will give their input here, the majority will be in the lines of "evil LDS trying to rip your money from you", as far as that, I'm only gonna limit myself to say that the service was bad ACCORDING to what you described, I'll let others be more detailed, I'm a bit lazy typer some times, sorry.

But I just wanted to point out, a hose with a tiny leak or a huge leak means exactly the same thing, hose gets replaced, period!

No, contact me prior to replacing my hose, perhaps I would like to try a braided LP hose from DGX or already have a spare. Your LDS should be in contact before replacing anything other than internal 'consumable' parts which are covered in the 'service'. I would have thanked them for a backup spare hose and refused to pay for it.