Reg breathes hard when swimming upside. Solutions?

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JessH

Contributor
Scuba Instructor
Messages
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Location
Santa Monica, Ca
# of dives
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When doing video work I often find it useful to swim under my subject looking up at them. When I do this my regs (Atomic Z1) become very difficult to breath. This makes sense since in this position the diaphragm on the second stage is a few inches shallower than my mouth where there is less pressure than where my lungs are. This would probably not be much of a problem at depth but I often do this in the pool near the surface when following swimmers, etc...

So does anyone have any ideas on how to decrease breathing resistence while in this position? Would it be possible to tune the reg to overcompensate for the ambient pressure to make up for this difference? I would then have to detune it using the knob on the side when not swimming in this position, would it cause me any problems while it was in my mouth if I don't detune it while I am in a normal swimming position? Obviously it would freeflow if I took it out of my mouth.

It occured to me that a double hose regulator might be better for this since the regulator would be deeper than my lungs and my mouth in this situation. I don't know if that is really enough of a justification for me to buy one though.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Jess
 
I swear I typed upside down in the topic and not just upside.....

~Jess
 
Oh no.....it's this topic once again. Despite a few good samaritans' attempts at convincing me that the depth differential is the reason, I remain pretty confident that it has more to do with the diaphraghm's orientation to the surface. Hence the reg which freeflows when mouthpiece up, stops when mouthpiece down. There is air on one side of the diaphraghm and water on the other, so...I guess I'm kind of like those guys that thought the world was flat.

Anyhow, there is a practical solution; I have a friend who recently bought a D400 and the effect of breathing resistance increasing when looking at the surface was greatly reduced. Hmmm....I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact the diaphragm in that reg is not parallel to the surface when you're facing up? Naw..
 
mattboy:
Oh no.....it's this topic once again. Despite a few good samaritans' attempts at convincing me that the depth differential is the reason, I remain pretty confident that it has more to do with the diaphraghm's orientation to the surface. Hence the reg which freeflows when mouthpiece up, stops when mouthpiece down. There is air on one side of the diaphraghm and water on the other, so...I guess I'm kind of like those guys that thought the world was flat.

Anyhow, there is a practical solution; I have a friend who recently bought a D400 and the effect of breathing resistance increasing when looking at the surface was greatly reduced. Hmmm....I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact the diaphragm in that reg is not parallel to the surface when you're facing up? Naw..

Well, the pressure of the air inside the airbox of your regulator and the pressure of the water on the outside is the same, so I would discount the "air bubble" theory. It truely is the different water pressure against the lungs vs the diaphragm. this can be seen clearly with a tub of water and a charged regulator. Thanks.

Phil Ellis
 
Didn't know this was such a heated topic ;-) Don't really care to argue the mechanics, a little more interested in some sort of workaround. I can function with the high breathing resistance, it is just not ideal, so any input on a solution would be apreciated.

I did actually think about the fact that the regs with a diaphragm on the side might offer slightly lower breathing resistance. With the diaphragm on the side it seems to be slightly closer to the mouth, but it is still above the lungs, so it doesn't seem that it will be that much better.

~Jess
 
It is an issue with the geometry of the second stage case and the relative locations of the exhaust valve and diaphragm.

With a conventiional second stage case design, in a normal face down position air will leak out the exhaust valve (which is about 1.0 to 1.3" higher in the water column than the center of the diaphragm) until the pressure inside the case is equal to the pressure at the exhaust valve (plus any resistance needed to slip past the exhaust valve).

So in the real world what happens when you stop inhaling between breaths is that diaphragm moves inward as the air leaks out the exhaust valve until the resistance of the lever stops the inward movement. This means that when equilibrium is reached, there is some pressure preloaded on the demand lever and it is there is that much less inhalation pressure required to further depress the lever and open the valve for the next breath.

In fact, if the inhalation effort on the reg is too light, the diaphragm will depress the lever enough to cause the valve to open slightly which results in a small but constant freeflow out the exhaust valve during the pause between breaths. This is why many conventional second stage designs cannot be practically set with inhalation efforts below about 1.0 to 1.3" unless they are equipped with an adjustment knob.

Now, when you are looking face up, the situation is reversed. The pressure at the exhaust valve is about 1.0 to 1.3" inches of water greater and the pressure inside the case stabilizes at this higher pressure. This pressure is then attempting to push the diaphragm outward (as the pressure is lower outside the diaphragm) and this pressure has to be overcome before the diaphragm can begin to depress the demand lever to initiate airflow for the next breath.

The result is that the inhalation effort is noticeably higher in the face up position with a conventional second stage design.

As indicated in the prior post, the Scubapro D400 breathes equally well in any position. This occurs because the exhaust valve is co-axially mounted in the center of the diaphragm and in addition the diaphragm is angled downward 45 degrees. This means that the maximum pressure differential is at worst only about .5 inches of water (the distance from the edge of the exhasut have to the center of the exhaust valve and diaphragm.) and that this worst case scenario only occurs when the diver is looking up at 45 degrees or looking down at a 135 degree angle. When looking straight up the differential is approx. .2 inches and in a normal swimming position it is .0 inches.

This means the poppet itself can be set to operate at inhaltion efforts as low as .6 inches of water and still be stable and that any increase in inhalation effort is limited to .2" (minus the initial resitance of the poppet). In practice there is virtually no percpetible change in inhaltion effort regardless of diver orientation.

Usually, when breathing in a face up position with a D400, the purge cover traps air in the "top" and will prevent water from leaking through the exhaust valve during exhalation. However, if you are angled off to the side while face up it is possible for the D400 to breath a bit wet as the water leaking into the case cannot run up hill out the exhaust valve mounted in the diaphragm.

The face up position is also a situation where it is very desirable to have an adjustable regulator. If the reg is properly tuned (so that it is on the edge of a freeflow, or even has a very slight freeflow when the knob is turned all the way out), you will have to turn the knob in a couple turns to prevent a freeflow in the worst case face down swimming positon to prevent a freeflow between breaths. But those couple of turns on the knob will then allow you to adjust the reg for normal breathing in a face up position. The pressure problem still exists, but the poppet will be on the edge of a freeflow already and will require very little inhalation to intiate air flow.

Double hose regs tend to force feed you in a face up situation, especially if you are swimming level in the water, as the pressure acting on the second stage diaphragm (located in the case attached to the tank valve) is a few to several inches below the mouthpiece where the air is trying to exit. It is not what I would call comfortable as you feel like the reg is trying to inflate you.
 
DA: So do you think I should be able to get satisfactory results by having my Z1 second stage tuned for these conditions and then detuning it for normal use? Or do you think I will only really get satisfactory results by getting myself a D400. I will definitely try the first option first, but will keep my eye out for a D400 if you think it will work significantly better in these situations.

~Jess
 
Tuning your Atomic's adjustable second stage should do the trick. (If not, I have one or two D400's I might sell to a good home.)

I am not sure on the Atomic tuning specs, but it is common for some adjustable regs to be tuned for about 1.1-1.4" of H2Or inhalation effort with the knob all the way out. Other adjustable regs specify adjustment to a similar figure with the knob turned in a specified number of turns to a mid range setting. In practice it usually works well just to tune them to the brink of a freeflow with the knob all the way out as it provides an adequate range of adjustment for all conditions. It may not allow for as mcuh travel in the event an excessive seating groove develops, but on the other hand, there will also be less pressure on the seat during storage with the lighter adjustment and an excessive seating groove will take a lot longer to devleop.
 
Thanks for the advice. When I get around to it I will get the shop around the corner to readjust my reg for me and see if I can get it breathing well in this position.

If I am still not happy I will bug you and see if we can work out a deal for one of those D400s, althouth I really would prefer to stick with my current regs.

~Jess
 

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