Redundant Bouyancy

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Okay... I tried...

If you want to dive with an anchor around your neck and compensate with a big hunk of foam bolted to your tanks, have at it...

 

[Thalassamania]

Okay... I tried...

If you want to dive with an anchor around your neck and compensate with a big hunk of foam bolted to your tanks, have at it...

Please, turn down the drama a notch, a 26 lb weightbelt is hardly, "an anchor around one's neck" and a little syntactic between your cylinders can not honestly be described as "a big hunk."

Jablonski recognized the problem when he wrote (in the context of the problem of dealing with a rig that was off the diver‘s back), “In many cases this … could prove fatal as the diver clings to tanks whose negative tendency stands in stark contrast to the divers positive tendency.” though I’ve yet to see him carry that line of reasoning out to what I find to be it’s logical conclusion.

Jablonski also wrote, “Many divers appreciate that certain extraordinary dives may require a degree of refinement simply unnecessary for the average diver. Yet in much the same way space travel is merely a distant dream for the majority, the advances gained from this pursuit are abundant. How much of this refinement is reasonable or more importantly helpful? One's attention to detail should at least be proportional to the type of dives done, but that strict attention to detail couldn't hurt.”

Okay... I tried... [SIZE=-1]YPYMYTYC. [/SIZE]I do hope that your survival never depends on having to remove your rig underwater.

 

[GDI]

I have had the chance to read some of the posts here and can say there are some good points on both sides of the argument. I personally use a double bladder and not just for simple dives vs complex dives I wear them all the time in all sorts of diving conditions. My rational here is that when/If I do need them muscle memory will not play a factor and my consistency is WELL constant. I exercise them on every dive. I have plenty of cold water experience (read Canada here) and warmer water (read Florida). First of all for a diver in a wetsuit the double baldder is really not an option in deep technical dives. . As we get deeper we do become more negative, basic stuff here guys. As a point to note here I have also made dives without the double bladder setup and have done just fine. The added demension of having a back up of anything cannot be overlooked here. In A drysuit some can argue that it is not required, and that is fine. What really one needs to look at is how are they hedging their bets. Accidents do not just happen. They can be a culmination of several things but usually they are a result of not paying attention be it due to mental fatique or whatever. A bladder can be popped and so can its back up (especially if one does not pay attention as to how they packed it for a trip) But so can a drysuit, I have experienced that on a shipwreck and it was not fun A drysuit gets real heavy and negative when it floods ( I was not wearing any double bladders at that time). The process of looking at this is called accident analysis. Example: Cave divers carry three lights, yes because they can all fail, Just ask Jeff Toorish about the odds of this possiblility. To not want to carry that extra back up piece of equipment is a personal choice. Back up bladders if used correctly and maintained can offer alot to safety if and when needed. Personlly I do not find that my resistence to streamlining is affected, you're wearing doubles here ladies and gentlemen the excuses of streamlining and entanglement is starting to wear thin. Pay attention to your proximity and awareness of surroundings, move in a slow deliberate purposeful manner. If the (bleep) hits the fan then your CO2 will build up anyway, you need to control the situation and this is where skill and knowledge comes to mind. Balanced gear; your gear should always be balanced reguardless of the configuration, I suggest that balanced gear has nothing to do with lift capacity (that may be just from my definition though). During my classes as a lesson learned from diving and life I have students who from a depth of 30 + feet swim their doubles to the surface. They do this having the least amount of or no air in any BCD or drysuit that they are wearing. Hey you want to carry the big tanks now swim with them.

Basically I do support the intelligent use of redundant bladders. To do so is not a crutch suggesting a lacking of skill, rather it really gets down to a choice that the diver has to make. What can go wrong? What is the likely hood of it going wrong? What have I done to prevent it from going wrong? and Should it go wrong, how can I survive it?

Do not just follow the crowd make an intelligent thought out choice, its your life dive it well

 

[Thalassamania]

Accidents do not just happen. They can be a culmination of several things but usually they are a result of not paying attention be it due to mental fatique or whatever.

Yes, in my experience accidents are usually the culmination of a chain of often minor events, break the chain and everything's fine.

Basically I do support the intelligent use of redundant bladders. To do so is not a crutch suggesting a lacking of skill, rather it really gets down to a choice that the diver has to make. What can go wrong? What is the likely hood of it going wrong? What have I done to prevent it from going wrong? and Should it go wrong, how can I survive it?

I don't see the need for redundant buoyancy if your rig is neutral and so are you, thought you could argue (and rightfully so) that the non-compressible flotation I'm suggesting is just that. A big advantage of diving a neutral rig is that it reduces the complexities of multiple bladders, inflators, etc. and thus keeps both normal and emergency procedures consistent with those of a "normal" dive.

Do not just follow the crowd make an intelligent thought out choice, its your life dive it well

RAmen.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I don't really have an issue with redundant bladders, done properly. As far as I'm concerned, arguments for and against both have valid points. I personnally don't use one, but I chalk that one up to personal choice.

What I do take exception to, is the permanent mounting of floats. BTW, Thal, I have a small boat and several different anchors, and not one of them weighs as much as 26lbs. So while I was adding some drama for effect, the comparison is accurate.

When you mention Jarrod, you might also look further and see that he does not recommend the use of heavy steel tanks, like 120s, for ocean diving. So it's kinda inappropriate to quote him to defend your practice.

 

[Thalassamania]

When you mention Jarrod, you might also look further and see that he does not recommend the use of heavy steel tanks, like 120s, for ocean diving. So it's kinda inappropriate to quote him to defend your practice.

I don't recommend them either. As I stated originally: I took what would be the worst possible case, which is a set of doubles that you'd need a crane to lift, because that was the outside edge of the envelope. But that does not obviate the basic philosophy, it only amplifies the problem. Solve the worst case problem and apply what you learn to the easier ones.

 

[GDI]

Yes, in my experience accidents are usually the culmination of a chain of often minor events, break the chain and everything's fine..

Good way of stating it. But Superior divers never put themselves in a position that requires the use of their well practised and maintained superior skills yet are prepared, mentally physically and with the right equipment should they need them.

I don't see the need for redundant buoyancy if your rig is neutral and so are you, thought you could argue (and rightfully so) that the non-compressible flotation I'm suggesting is just that. A big advantage of diving a neutral rig is that it reduces the complexities of multiple bladders, inflators, etc. and thus keeps both normal and emergency procedures consistent with those of a "normal" dive.

OK, Bouyancy changes with depth and it is important to maintain a neutral state through out the entire dive profile the most critical of which is the ascent. The dive having three phases. The descent, the bottom profile and the ascent.

 

[Thalassamania]

Good way of stating it. But Superior divers never put themselves in a position that requires the use of their well practised and maintained superior skills yet are prepared, mentally physically and with the right equipment should they need them.

That's where we have a different view. I know that things go wrong on every dive, usually several things. What skills, preparation and the right equipment does is break the accident chain, often so easily that you've really got to think about it to realize that something actually did go wrong.

OK, Bouyancy changes with depth and it is important to maintain a neutral state through out the entire dive profile the most critical of which is the ascent. The dive having three phases. The descent, the bottom profile and the ascent.

When your rig is trimmed so as to be neutral at your last stop, all you have to do is keep your suit at constant volume and use your BC to adjust for the weight of your gas. Your suit will supply backup flotation in the off chance that your BC suffers damage early in the dive.

 

[lamont]

Between my wing, my drysuit, my SMB, my scooter and my buddy and all their gear, I don't see the need for a double bladder...

 

[Thalassamania]

Between my wing, my drysuit, my SMB, my scooter and my buddy and all their gear, I don't see the need for a double bladder...

Depends on how much coffee or tea you drink, there are times I could use a double bladder.