Redesigning AOW

[renpirate]

I have actually been lucky in that I have designed a more in-depth advanced course and charge a decent amount.

Weekend 1
Dive 1# Basic skills review, SAC rate
Dive 2# Bouyancy Skills
Dive 3# Navigation, Compass basics, and distance
Dive 4# Navigation, Compass course

Weekend 2
Dive 5# Search patterns, liftbags
Dive 6# Fish ID dive along area in prep for night dive
Dive 7# Night Dive
Dive 8# Deep Dive 100' from boat
Dive 9# Fun dive, Fish ID

I work on the basic skills along the way, gas management, navigation, knot tying skills, etc. I charge $369 which inculdes tuition, books, and boat dive. So far everybody has been really satisfied.

OK, putting on my impenatrateable internet armor. Let the criticism fly

 

[TwoBitTxn]

Yes, I really didn't want to start the endless discussion of the shortcomings of current OW training or diver skills. I did want to talk about whether, within the framework of the existing AOW classes, it would be possible to build a class that would help remedy some of the shortcomings and actually deliver content. I hope that some instructors may have read this thread and gotten some ideas about how to improve classes, and some divers may have come up with some questions to ask, or suggestions to make about their own AOW classes, when they sign up for them.

I don't think this was clear in your initial post. I would love to see a constructive discussion as to how to improve the AOW WITHIN THE EXISITING FRAMEWORK rather than a diatribe about how the current program is broken and should be sacked.

To me, the former is more realistic and valuable than the latter.

TwoBit

 

[TSandM]

I guess I didn't state it openly, but by offering a class with five dives, and including the two required ones, I thought I was at least implying that I was trying to create an AOW that would fit within the existing parameters.

I absolutely applaud people like Bob, and renpirate, and others who are teaching an AOW class that's longer and more complete. Those are superb classes, but they're going to attract the exceptionally motivated student . . . AND many, if not most of the students in the areas where those instructors operate will NEVER hear that those classes exist. How would you know about Bob's AOW class, if you didn't hang out on ScubaBoard? He's an independent instructor and doesn't teach OW for the most part, so he hasn't got beginning students to come along with him, and no shop or instructor is going to refer students to him when they can offer an AOW class themselves and profit from it.

One of the most difficult things for students is finding information. As the "poorly skilled DM" thread points out, a student only knows what he sees and what he is told, unless he's smart enough to go to the Internet to get more information. Honestly, it never occured to me that there were Scuba-related bulletin boards. I didn't find SB until another diver told me about it!

 

[amascuba]

I guess I didn't state it openly, but by offering a class with five dives, and including the two required ones, I thought I was at least implying that I was trying to create an AOW that would fit within the existing parameters.

I absolutely applaud people like Bob, and renpirate, and others who are teaching an AOW class that's longer and more complete. Those are superb classes, but they're going to attract the exceptionally motivated student . . . AND many, if not most of the students in the areas where those instructors operate will NEVER hear that those classes exist. How would you know about Bob's AOW class, if you didn't hang out on ScubaBoard? He's an independent instructor and doesn't teach OW for the most part, so he hasn't got beginning students to come along with him, and no shop or instructor is going to refer students to him when they can offer an AOW class themselves and profit from it.

One of the most difficult things for students is finding information. As the "poorly skilled DM" thread points out, a student only knows what he sees and what he is told, unless he's smart enough to go to the Internet to get more information. Honestly, it never occured to me that there were Scuba-related bulletin boards. I didn't find SB until another diver told me about it!

The thing with the PADI AOW class is that there is so much potential for a good and complete class that falls perfectly within the standards, but many instructors are in the mode of just having the student read the Adventures in Diving manual and do the dives.

I'm just a lowly PADI DM, but based on the standards of the AOW class, I can be in the water with the students by myself on every dive except the night dive and the deep dive. The instructor just has to have indirect supervision on the remaining dives. That means that I'm usually left to work with AOW students while the instructor is working an OW class. I actually like working AOW classes. I try to make it fun and will also go over much of the material on surface intervals. For the most part the instructor lets me do what I feel needs to be done unless we are strapped for time or it falls outside the bounds of the standards. I usually go over dive planning, altitude, navigation, communication, and search patterns with a fair amount of detail and it's been rewarding. As for divers skills in the water, I am limited to 'diving by example' there as my instructor basically see's the class as the student being a diver and for the most part should lead the dive unless he/she breaks the dive plan by exceeding depth, time, turn pressure, etc.

The SSI AOW course is totally different and can be more complete if done properly. By the SSI standards, it's AOW course is 4 specialty courses (Not just a sampler) and 24 total logged dives. I'm an SSI Dive Con as well, but the SSI shop that I used to work with didn't really push training beyond the OW course, but I think that an SSI instructor could really make an exceptional AOW course given those guidelines.

 

[YellowfinKunkfish]

I'm just a lowly PADI DM, but based on the standards of the AOW class, I can be in the water with the students by myself on every dive except the night dive and the deep dive. The instructor just has to have indirect supervision on the remaining dives. That means that I'm usually left to work with AOW students while the instructor is working an OW class.

Is this normal!?!

What's the point in paying for the class if your instructor isn't even going to be in the water, instructing?!

No offense to any DM's, but I'm paying to be instructed in advanced skills, by an INSTRUCTOR. In my case, from an instructor whose skills I have a lot of respect for.

Please tell me this isn't what normally happens with an AOW class.

Rhonda

 

[amascuba]

Is this normal!?!

What's the point in paying for the class if your instructor isn't even going to be in the water, instructing?!

No offense to any DM's, but I'm paying to be instructed in advanced skills, by an INSTRUCTOR. In my case, from an instructor whose skills I have a lot of respect for.

Please tell me this isn't what normally happens with an AOW class.

Rhonda

Around here it is very normal. I'm not going to try to comment on how other shops, instructors, etc teach their class, but based on the PADI standards it's allowed.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the PADI AOW class is hardly "advanced". At it's most basic concept, what you are paying for are 5 supervised "sampler" dives with very little actual instruction. It really depends on the instructor to provide an exceptional course.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Is this normal!?!

What's the point in paying for the class if your instructor isn't even going to be in the water, instructing?!

No offense to any DM's, but I'm paying to be instructed in advanced skills, by an INSTRUCTOR. In my case, from an instructor whose skills I have a lot of respect for.

Please tell me this isn't what normally happens with an AOW class.

Rhonda

The deep dive is the only dive where the instructor is required to be in the water. The night dive and the wreck dive require at least a DM in the water. Students can do all the other dives on their own with no in-water supervision.

It is pretty common around here to see students doing nav dives and the like with the instructor on shore. In fact, thats the way I was taught to teach the class. The way you make a few bucks doing this is to have an OW class, and advanced class and maybe a specialty or two all going on at the same time with the instructor doing what must be done by an instructor, the DM's doing as much as standards permit and students on their own when standards permit.

 

[tedj01]

From observations from Dm'ing for Aow and even being at lake/quarry happening to start talking to an Aow student. I have noticed a variety of instructors who do make this certification a really fun experience and sharing knowledge such that students really did not realize they were even gathering experience (primary objective of class) and incurring learning (primary objective impossible without also incurring this objective).

Anyway, the students would say that they were really having fun but expected much more from the class. When asked about what their expectations, I never got much of an answer except for they expected to learn much more than they were. Its hard to this part and give examples, but here goes.

From being able have observed the students or just parts of the class operations. I could start asking questions about did they already know this or that. For example, some the places required lots of schlepping gear to even get close to the water. The instructors I helped would gather everyone in parking lot and ask if everyone was ready. Answer also was yes let's go - get the gear and carry down to the water. Instructor would stop everyone and start asking basic dive planning questions. Most of the time students would not have been to the dive site. What kind of entry is it? What about exit? Are conditions even such that we can dive? Maybe beach is closed? Rarely could you see beach from the parking lot. And then would ask wouldn't it practical to check all this out before carrying all of our gear down there and then having to pack it all back up before having to move to next cove around the bend. So instructor would have students begin by going off and start the dive planning giving them the basics of what the first dive was going to be and objectives of the dive. Then students would come back and ask additional questions and basically attempt to give a short briefing including info about expectations of dive from a dive table perspective. Instructor would offer suggestions for corrections and ask more questions that they needed to decide before the dive. And their gear is still in their vehicles. I am stopping now - this is getting long.

Later when talking to students and how they were disappointed with the class - I could start asking questions about what they already knew and if they knew this or that. Like in example did you know to check dive site out before carrying all the gear down. Invariably after the student got started they could relate numerous little tips or tricks (their terms) - they were generally surprised at how many things they had picked up over the weekend. They would generally say something to the effect - maybe it wasn't so bad after all, besides it was a lot of fun. Other people assisting with these classes would relate similar conversations. I even had assistants relate the same info to me during my advanced classes.

As far as some skill such a buoyancy, sometimes all an instructor can do in a short time is to help improve the skill somewhat but impart enough information to assist the student to further improve the skill by additional practive. To get better it takes effort by the student and typically takes time and practice. Then just maybe you will be good enough that you need some more practice before you get to seriously thinking about practicing some more.

 

[Thalassamania]

17 pages ... a lot of writing ... some great courses described ... some great discussion. But I think that the basic answer has not be proffered and that's because no one has gone to the heart of the matter and written a succinct objectives statement for what an AOW course should be.

That is the first step to designing a new program. I would do so, but I feel that the current OW courses are so inadequate that I have no real interest in offering up for discussion an objective based on a premise that some here do not agree with, we'd just wind up arguing that premise.

So let's have it, what is the objective statement for the redesign of the AOW, given the current state of OW instruction?

 

[jupitermermaid]

If I were making the rules to obtain an AOW cert, the first prerequisite would be to complete at least 50 ocean dives which would include 10% of dives over 100 feet, at least 20 CESA'a from various depths, 10 air-share ascents from various depths, 10 night dives and a decent navigational, solo dive and rescue course. Then the AOW might mean something to the diver rather thatn a cash cow for the certifying agencies and the LDS's. Gas planning might be another good one. Buoyancy should come about with experience so I don't see a need for that. This crap about fish identification, photography, etc. is so much fluff.

I'm with you!!! I wanted to get some experience in as a novice diver before I went for my AOW (silly me.....being a teacher, I thought learning was the objective). In the meantime, I got my specialties in Nitrox, Cavern, and Wreck. I have 6 logged dives in over 100' water, and 17 of my total of 47 dives so far in 80-100' (many of these with the dive center I'm going to get my AOW from!!!!).

There is a particular dive I want to do within the next few weeks, but they require a minimum of AOW and Nitrox certification. When I inquired about it, they said PADI doesn't recognize my TID certs for Nitrox and Cavern, (I got Wreck in PADI), and would have to do my 5 "Adventure dives" before being able to dive this particular dive to get my AOW. I admit I really need (and want) navigation and would pay dearly to learn this skill, but the hoops for the other stuff I disagree with. I guess because I'm a teacher and approach each of my students as individuals and assess their individual needs to teach to their level of competency (or lack thereof) I expect the same when I'm searching to achieve higher learning.

Since I have Nitrox, Wreck, and have dove deep, and WANT to learn navigation, search and rescue, and making the diving environment safe for all, why can't instruction be geared towards the desired outcome for each student? When I inquired about my AOW because of this ONE dive I want to do, I found out that I have to repeat some other stuff I've already done just to appease PADI. This is sad, because I thought I'd like to go all the way and get my instructor's cert. so I could teach diving after retirement from the public school education system. But if this is how they do it, I'm too ethical and demanding to just go through the motions of making someone "feel" like they are accomplished divers.

I know that the instructor I chose would have given me the best instruction I could have if I had time to do it the way it should properly be given. But since time is of the essence for one dive I want to do (that I feel confident I am capable of at my level at this time), I have to get less than what I would like overall in order to dive it. I WILL continue on so I can become the best diver I can be and also be able to help others who find themselves in situations less than desirable, but I feel less confident in the process overall. I see now why we as teachers are looked "down upon" in general.

Sorry for going on so long......just wanted to spew out my feelings (for me AND my kids....lol).