Red Flags or Misplaced Expectations?

[NorCalDM]

So I have to agree someone who is on my ignore list.

I think one of the problems for those of us who have been in the industry a while and are not sycophants to our respective agencies is that there is a bit of sales pitch for ocean front property in Nevada. When I did my IDC, there was such a push for selling the next class before they even finished their open water class. I would watch students when the shop owner was making the agency pitch for equipment and courses and I could see how they are turned off. The regional director was talking about how much money can be made from teaching PPB (his wife did apparently). Well, when you look at PPB, the performance requirements are not much different than open water. I discuss that here and here. I think this push for more classes is really disingenuous. While quick/cheap classes are good for the agency, they are not good for the instructor or more importantly, the customer. The shops/instructors that teach properly, and charge accordingly, have much higher retention rates (I'm referring to Jade Scuba, 8, and Off the Hook). But you can't be a used car salesman in a cheap suit (I called the owner of the first shop I taught at a used Fiat salesman to his face).

The industry lacks integrity and it is hard for me to choose an agency. Who has the largest shred of integrity? Who is the lessor of all evils? As there are issues with even the agencies where I recommend courses (and no, I'm not getting into that here. You'd have to get me rather drunk at DEMA before I open my mouth)

There is never a discussion about costs of insurance, rates of return, actual numbers of compensation for courses. The first shop I taught, you would earn $75 per student in open water where dry suit was included. In the next shop where it wasn't, it was $50 per student. Now this was only if they were certified. For the second shop, it would be $25 for getting them through academics and the pool session. I don't know about the first shop, as I was a horrible instructor back then who taught on the knees, and everyone passed, even when because the equipment provided sucked so bad, I had to have one student breath off my alternate when she did the mask removal, replacement, and clear. I told the CD what I did and he said it met performance requirements (in hindsight, I should have known better - and I know I'll get skewered now by some folks - hey, I've learned, m'kay?).

You are far better off putting your money that you would pay for training to become a dive pro in the stock market and working another job and just diving for fun.

I do consider myself a scuba fanatic, but I don't care that scuba diving is unimportant to 99.99999% of the world's population. I am frustrated however by the lack of transparency and ethics.

If I wasn't going to open a dive center in Greece, becoming a dive pro would be the worst financial decision I made in my life.

Transparency, ethics and integrity have nothing to do with personal privacy. Struggling to pay the bills will make people do questionable things no matter what industry this is not specific to the scuba industry. I've been in the industry for 16+ years and have worked with some great shops and some not so great shops.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Transparency, ethics and integrity have nothing to do with personal privacy.

Sure, but this is not about whether employee A is making more than employee B. At every shop I've taught, instructors were all paid the same amount. Hence I don't think the question is rude.

Struggling to pay the bills will make people do questionable things no matter what industry this is not specific to the scuba industry.

Agreed.

I've been in the industry for 16+ years and have worked with some great shops and some not so great shops.

Of course, and the OP is doing the smart thing by trying to gauge the compensation range in his research to make an educated decision.

 

[tursiops]

the OP is doing the smart thing by trying to gauge the compensation range

The OP never actually mentioned compensation...so it is a bit of a red herring to argue that peopleoutght to provide that info.

 

[rjgiddings]

@Dan G the original post was now some 50+ posts ago - and I always learn a few things reading through the exchanges, but let's get back to your instincts here - what does your gut tell you ? That's what you go with.

 

[boulderjohn]

This thread brings to mind the two dominate points of view I have seen in nearly 20 years on ScubaBoard. Interestingly enough, it is clear that many people firmly believe both.

1. People are foolish to become instructors, because they are paid so poorly for that work.
2. Instructors who try to earn a living by charging for classes (like specialty classes) are damned money grabbers. They should be doing that sort of thing for free.

 

[Brett Hatch]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Hello, this forum is in the Learning Zone, which is part of the Basic Forum. This forum enjoys special rules against flaming, snark, and disrespectful posting. I have just deleted more than 10 posts which are far over the line here. A good chunk of the thread is edging up to the line (or arguably already over it). Please keep off-topic conversations out of this thread, and please refrain from making overly harsh posts.

The nature of this thread is a touchy subject. People have strong feelings about compensation, transparency, dive instructor curriculum, and the motives of various stakeholders. I get that. But, I think this conversation would be a lot more productive if we'd all just take a breath before hitting the Post Reply button.

From here on out, flaming posts will be deleted without warning, and repeat offenders will be banned from the thread.

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[johndiver999]

I used to say that the guy who picks up your garbage is paid a good bit more than a "professional" scuba instructor. I suspect that the situation has not changed.

 

[boulderjohn]

I used to say that the guy who picks up your garbage is paid a good bit more than a "professional" scuba instructor. I suspect that the situation has not changed.

It's not even close. Anyone making a legal wage is making much more per hour than I ever did.

Here is a story that exactly sums up the role of a dive instructor in a typical dive shop.

Our dive shop planned a group trip to the Galapagos Islands, and many of the instructional staff went on it. So did the senior shop management and the owner.

• The shop instructors paid full cost--no employee discount.
• The dive shop owner paid nothing.
• Senior management paid very little.
• When we peons boarded the flights to and from the USA, the owner never even looked up from where he was sipping his cocktail in the first class cabin as we passed.
• We had severe weight restrictions for the flights to and from Ecuador to the Galapagos. With the weight of our dive gear, we could barely bring clothes. As we waited for the weigh-in at the airport, the owner and senior management people, who had huge cameras and other such stuff, were chatting amongst themselves, but within earshot of everyone else. They said they had paid no attention to the weight limits, and they all had more than double the weight limit. The shop owner then had the airport people weigh all the bags together. He had them divide the total overweight fees by the total number of passengers, so we were all charged enough to cover their overweight fees.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I used to say that the guy who picks up your garbage is paid a good bit more than a "professional" scuba instructor. I suspect that the situation has not changed.

They need a union.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

They need a union.

My first job out of high school was a union job. They had lots of little sayings, some stuck with me for life. One was… Never work for free!

The problem is so many want to turn their hobby into a job, that there’s always someone willing to do it. Problem is, when you turn your hobby into a job, it becomes work.

If everyone just said no, they would have to pay a living wage. That’s basically what a union is, organized labor.