Reconsidering whether I want to be a divemaster

[Jim Lapenta]

What I meant was that the issues with air supply, lights, buddy separation, and low vis conditions should have been addressed before the person was allowed to begin DM training. Not wait until during. At the least they should have been covered in AOW and Rescue. Not wait until he has already started DM. His skills and comfort in those areas should have been evaluated before signing him up for DM.

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[nimoh]

Maybe he did mean that but the OP isn't a DM, he's a DMC.... he's still in training. Writing off someone because they still have things to learn and then going on to say that he should never have been selected to learn because he has too much to learn (which is in essence what Jim said to him, whether he meant to or not) is an attitude that I can't support.

People need to have the opportunity to learn. That means making mistakes and getting constructive feedback about it. Is he ready? No. everyone here, including me agrees about that and how the OP's own instructor chose to deal with debreifing this dive isn't under discussion. But what *IS* clear to me is that the learning IS happening..... that much is clear by what he said and the fact that he made a post about it here.... The gears are engaged.

But to just tell someone in training that they're useless because they have a lot to learn is poor style in my book.

R..

As I said, I didn't get that from Jim's post, but looking back, I can definitely see your point.

 

[boulderjohn]

What I meant was that the issues with air supply, lights, buddy separation, and low vis conditions should have been addressed before the person was allowed to begin DM training. Not wait until during. At the least they should have been covered in AOW and Rescue. Not wait until he has already started DM. His skills and comfort in those areas should have been evaluated before signing him up for DM.

SO all of that is a requirement to BEGIN DM training?

I had never had a single low visibility, cold water dive--not one--when I began my DM training. By the time my DM training ended, I certainly had, and now that's mostly what I do.

In my opinion, training is when you learn things, not when you display the things you already knew before training began.

 

[James R]

The instructor knew he had 700 and was still conducting the skills. So how am I going to call a dive at this point?

It may have been covered by someone already and I missed it, but there is something you should keep in mind:

Any diver can call a dive at any time for any reason without repercussions.

If you call a dive and the instructor has a problem with it, it's his problem. Go work with an instructor that puts safety of his divers and DMs first.

 

[Diver0001]

What I meant was that the issues with air supply, lights, buddy separation, and low vis conditions should have been addressed before the person was allowed to begin DM training. Not wait until during. At the least they should have been covered in AOW and Rescue. Not wait until he has already started DM. His skills and comfort in those areas should have been evaluated before signing him up for DM.

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On this we agree. There are big differences between where different instructors set the bar for entry and I think we both agree that the agency standards aren't nearly specific enough about it.

Having said that, I hope you go back and read your own first post in this thread because there appears to be a big difference between what you are saying now, which is a general comment about the bar for entry, and what you said in your first post, which was delivered as specific feedback to the OP, who is the middle of a learning process.

I don't think dumping your frustration about agency standards on a student when you're giving him/her feedback about their performance is very productive. It doesn't help them learn to hear that you think they should have never been accepted.... that's negative feedback and completely bypasses the point that they ARE in the course and as such they NEED your help to progress.... and secondly, it doesn't help you become less frustrated because no matter how hard you are on that student, it's not going to change agency standards. That's a lose/lose.

I think if you reflect upon it in this light you'll see my point, Jim. You're a rational guy who is committed to being a good instructor so you'll be sure to see this point.

R..

---------- Post Merged at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:23 PM ----------

SO all of that is a requirement to BEGIN DM training?

I had never had a single low visibility, cold water dive--not one--when I began my DM training. By the time my DM training ended, I certainly had, and now that's mostly what I do.

In my opinion, training is when you learn things, not when you display the things you already knew before training began.

I might have asked you to go get that experience before starting the course, John, but I'm really happy that you had an instructor with the foresight to see to it that it got done. Many don't. The the problem with standards. It's *assumes* basic diving skills are in place and doesn't require specifically testing for them beyond the superficial.

On the entry requirements I tend to side with Jim. The DM course is a course where you primarily learn how to supervise other divers and assist with training them. It's a course where your attention (as DMC) needs to be directed outward (to what others are doing) and not distracted by the basic process of your own diving. It's getting the cart in front of the horse a bit if you also need to address basic diving skill/comfort in that course.

That's aside from the obvious, which is that a DMC is going to be breaking new ground and getting in situations that are contextually new, that develop at a much higher pace than they may have previously experienced and may possibly be intimidating. That, of course, is part of what the need to experience and adjust to.

Since the OP didn't say anything about his previous diving experience I saw that post as falling on this side of the line. Where Jim saw a DMC who is incompetent as a diver, I saw a DMC who got caught out by something he didn't expect and wasn't sure how to handle. That's why I thought that dive/post had some valuable teaching potential and was so disappointed to see the harsh handling he got.

R..

 

[Altadiver]

I believe that the OP has forgotten some of the fundamentals that they were taught in their previous training, which makes me, believe that perhaps they need to reconsider training any further for now and practice the fundamental skills they require to become a good role model to new divers at a professional level.
During the dive brief did the OP ask questions such as when to leave the dive, agree on time, depth and air supply limits and what to do if an emergency arises, if these were not covered in the brief? As a DMC you should be well aware of how a briefing should be executed, as this is covered in the book work before you even begin your dive evaluations.
Did the OP or the student give the instructor a LOA signal? If so they should have called the dive at that point. The OP’s reaction to OOA needs to be practiced, when their buddy became OOA why did the OP not give their buddy their Alternate Air Source first, but rather went for the staged bottle first?? Was the function of the Staged bottle covered in the dive brief? Perhaps a review of the Buddy System Procedures would be an asset for the OP.
As for surfacing with less then 500psi I would like to know what the briefing said about how much air you should surface with (standard is between 300 and 500psi in the local area)?
As a frequent local diver I have to wonder how many dives the OP has done in Lake Minnewanka and did they lead the instructors to believe that they are experienced in these conditions? Does the OP typically dive at other local dive sites that typically are shallower and the visibility can be much better then even some of the best conditions in Minnewanka (ex: Two Jack Lake, Forget-Me-Not Pond).
In the late spring and summer months the visibility in Minnewanka can range anywhere from 0&#8217; to >20&#8217;, sometimes in the fall and ice-diving in the winter the vis can be as good as 50&#8217;. At the dam site the visibility can be as good as < 20&#8217; at the top along the roadway, reduce to 15&#8217; on top of the block house and then halfway down the block house be reduced again to 0, this can be the norm. As Hawkwood pointed out, this year the visibility has really been effected by run off from an unusual snow pack in the mountains. The silt layer on the artefacts&#8217; in the lake is unusually thick this year which will also reduce the visibility when students are kicking or landing on their knees to do skills.
It looks to me that as written in the original post that the instructor changed their dive plan so that the skills would be done at a shallower depth in better vis, after they themselves became aware of the poor visibility at the greater depth.
I think the OP should postpone her training and try to gain more experience diving the local training sites before continuing her DM course. Gaining the experience will help boost her own confidence and make her a better role model to the students she will be guiding in these conditions. Perhaps she could dive with some of the more experienced local divers and practice some essential skills that she may be weak on that cannot be learned in just a few sessions in a pool.

 

[Hawkwood]

Well put "Altadiver"

 

[TSandM]

I don't know -- I'm more with Diver0001 on this one. I had pretty solid diving skills, including solid navigation and buoyancy in poor viz, before I started my DMC class. I found that, although I could handle myself very nicely, handling myself AND somebody else, or watching a couple of somebody elses and chasing them up into the water column while watching the others and managing my own buoyancy and . . . Sometimes it was overwhelming (and sometimes it still feels that way!).

I'll bet you I could take some of the Fundies tech pass graduates here from the last year, throw them in to DM a low viz OW class, and watch them come out shaken. It's a different set of skills and a much higher level of stress. Cut the guy some slack -- he's learning.

 

[barefootek]

I guess I get a different take from the original post than some. I don't see any mistakes that were glaring and there seemed to be a lot than was done well. Scuba nube kept up with their buddy in zero viz, established bouyancy for the both of them in the process, let the instructor know that there was a low air situation, and donated their alternate after the issue with the stage bottle. They admit mistakes and know it was not a perfect dive but I fail to see anything that was all that bad. I think it to be very understandable to be a little shook up.

It is really easy to say that they should have asked certain questions and been prepared for certain situations, but the questions are not always obvious when you are missing information. And I don't care how many scenarios you go through during the rescue diver course, it still isn't the same as the real thing. Criticize if you want but I think Scuba Nube probably did as well or better than most would given similar circumstances. We often forget that so many things become clearer after the fact. We also forget that it is a lot easier to question a "superior", when we are having someone else do it and we are behind a computer screen. I still say "Hang in there." I had a bad day yesterday (though no where as bad as Scuba Nube's) and had to think that my bad days diving were no where near as bad as my bad days with other jobs.

As for my comment on doing a safety stop with the air situation, I stand behind it. TSandM said "Safety stops don't make a "huge" difference. They are OPTIONAL . . . except in a very few cases where the diver has done a deep dive and come very close to NDLs, where at least the PADI tables call it a "mandatory safety stop". Keeping someone underwater when they are critically low on gas, just to do an optional stop, is not good judgment." They should have said a deep dive (100ft +) OR close to NDL's. I don't know if they hit 100 ft but we know it was deep (at least 86ft) and they were down long enough to use almost all of their air. Just guessing, I personally would guess that they were close to No Decompression Limits. I'll agree that if the dive was at 40 ft a safety stop would not make a "huge" difference, but in cases approaching recreational limits, I think that data from studies justifies my use of the word "huge". I also do not think that there is really a critical point with air once they were at the safety stop. They should be able to do a controlled swimming ascent from twice that. The other instructor at the stop donated a longer alternate, and Scuba Nube's instructor didn't question finishing the stop (not sure if that opinion is a good one to use). I think at the least the point is debatable and that there should be no criticism of Scuba Nube for doing it. At the very least it shows a lack of panic. Criticize me if you want, but I still say "Well done." and hope that I would do the same thing under similar circumstances.

 

[Kitty_Kat]

I don't know -- I'm more with Diver0001 on this one. I had pretty solid diving skills, including solid navigation and buoyancy in poor viz, before I started my DMC class. I found that, although I could handle myself very nicely, handling myself AND somebody else, or watching a couple of somebody elses and chasing them up into the water column while watching the others and managing my own buoyancy and . . . Sometimes it was overwhelming (and sometimes it still feels that way!).

I'll bet you I could take some of the Fundies tech pass graduates here from the last year, throw them in to DM a low viz OW class, and watch them come out shaken. It's a different set of skills and a much higher level of stress. Cut the guy some slack -- he's learning.

I agree! I'm positive I didn't handle every situation that arose during my DMC internship spectacularly. I have also never seen a DMC that was put into one of my classes handle things perfectly. I wouldn't expect them to either! I think the OP did a reasonable job of handling the situations he faced. I also think he learned a few very valuable lessons that aren't going to be forgotten any time in the near future.

Like James R and some others said, do not hesitate to call a dive. As a DM, if a student is having a serious enough problem to need to surface, you get the instructors attention, signal that you're going up and give a brief explanation if possible (signal out/low on air, "something is wrong"), wave bye bye and go up. I agree that if they still have a problem with it later, find a different instructor. I would question working with an instructor who decides to start skill work with 700psi at 60+ feet.... We also use 500psi as "essentially out of air" - you should be on the surface.

Like TSandM said, I thought I was pretty good at handling myself prior to starting my DM, but it really is a whole different world having to handle yourself, others, and immediately respond to a situation. We recently had a pretty bad OW class that we convinced our course director to assist with. She agreed to act as another DM since we thought we would need the extra help. After a slightly chaotic first dive in which there were multiple situations with bolting students, awful vis, seasickness, and LOA, our course director summed up the job pretty nicely: "F*** you can't pay me enough to do that job ever again. I'm giving all of our DMs a raise". It really does get easier over time, but it's not a "easy" job