dfx
Contributor
Ah yes... you just googled that, randomly, right? It doesn't have anything to do with this particular thread from another forum, from over 2 years ago, yes?
Question to Paul Raymaekers in respect of rEVO CE
hbrother:
Rebreather Discussion from Brockville Incident
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Question to Paul Raymaekers in respect of rEVO CE
hbrother:
daniel f aleman
Contributor
George Irvine III once said of the Inspiration, "It should be sold with a shovel."
CCR's kill divers; if you don't understand that by now, God help you. Oh, and the next time that you're in Florida, go by Wes Skiles grave, stare at the headstone and think about the nature of the universe for a while.
CCR's kill divers; if you don't understand that by now, God help you. Oh, and the next time that you're in Florida, go by Wes Skiles grave, stare at the headstone and think about the nature of the universe for a while.
I guess since someone quoted GI3, we can finally all agree that this is an "If you don't dive DIR, then you will die" thread.
Later that same year wkpp was diving rebreathers. And why did wes die? Oh that's right, he was an f'ing moron who dove a unit with no training, no bailout and no buddy. Sometimes you reap what you sow.
daniel f aleman
Contributor
Skiles was a great diver, and yet he still screwed up using a CCR. The point is, like climbing Mount Everest, or playing Russian Roulette: somebody else is gonna' die using those damn things, and we all know it-- nature of the beast. I mean it's diving is a sport; and Gesis, it's hard enough to keep dumf*cks from killing themselves on OC...
He was a great OC diver. He sucked on CCR. Most of his photo shoots required a CCR Babysitter to monitor his rebreather for him during the dive. That fateful day in West Palm was on one of the most complicated rebreathers out there. It was NOTHING like the rebreather he was trained on 20 years earlier. He had no babysitter. He had no bailout. He had no training on a very complicated rebreather.
I expect nothing less from anyone else to happen with the same conditions.
gianaameri
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Ah yes... you just googled that, randomly, right? It doesn't have anything to do with this particular thread from another forum, from over 2 years ago, yes?
Question to Paul Raymaekers in respect of rEVO CE
Yes, back in March 2011 I asked the question I quote below when I was researching the subject. In a separate thread later on (in the CCRX Forum) Paul of rEVO explained that he found a loophole which he uses in the legislation which allows him to get a "CE" from RINA without meeting Clause 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003. He never said his rebreathers meet Clause 5.13.1, but then again no manufacturer discloses that it does not meet Clause 5.13.1. It is a general problem in the industry (lack of Functional Safety) and not unique to rEVO or Ouroboros... or any single rebreather.
These machines, the electronic ones currently available to the general public, have no Functional Safety. If you do a google search (since I do not want to single out any rebreather as it is a general problem) you will find lots of relevant pdf documents from manufacturers like manuals and CE certifcates not disclosing lack of Functional Safety.
This is the question I had asked Paul of rEVO back in March 2011. I only received documents in December 2011 from the U.K. authorities which formally confirmed (black on white) lack of Functional Safety in rebreathers (I did ask further confirmation directly from Notified Bodies that it was indeed the case rebreathers lacked Functional Safety as instead pre-scribed by EN14143:2003 Clause 5.13.1).
Again, a general situation in the industry, not a single rebreather issue.
"Question to Paul Raymaekers in respect of rEVO CE
I asked this question in a separate thread and maybe inappropriately so (off-thread), but
I believe this is the right thread to ask the question (as I have been asked to move my question to its own specific thread).
Do the rEVO Rebreathers meet EN61508 (in accordance to 5.13.1 EN14143:2003)?
On page 127 of the Sentinel Manual it says that EN61508 is satisfied and I believe APD
claims the same of his products.
It is quite an important feature for a rebreather, and I would like to know.
This is what the Sentinel and Ouroboros manuals say, for comparison, but the rEVO
Manual is silent on the subject:
"Functional Safety as set out in IEC 61508 and related safety issues have
been of particular importance in designing the SENTINEL LSS. Of
particular relevance has been the considerable diver input on types of
failure and user error within LSS systems, both in the mechanical and
control systems. From this direct hands-on information, safety systems
within the SENTINEL are higher than on any other current LSS. On top of
this, safety design has been the driving force behind the SENTINEL, to be
as forgiving as possible to diver error, and to component failures. From this
point of view, this section includes safety considerations that the
manufacturers have employed to provide the safest, most intuitive and
user-friendly LSS currently commercially available."
"Functional Safety as set out in IEC 61508 and related safety issues have
been of particular importance in designing the Ouroboros rebreather. Of
particular relevance has been the considerable diver input on types of failure
and user error within rebreather systems, both in the mechanical and control
systems. From this direct hands-on information, safety systems within the
Ouroboros are higher than on any other current rebreather. On top of this,
safety design has been the driving force behind the Ouroboros, to be as
forgiving as possible to diver error, and to component failures. From this point
of view, this section includes safety considerations that the manufacturers
have employed to provide the safest, most intuitive and user-friendly
rebreather currently commercially available."
Because I received no answer to my question, I dropped an email to RINA yesterday
asking the same question, but it would be nice if I could get a reply directly from the
manufacturer to understand the merits of one product vs. another particular in a critical
aspect of a rebreather like the life-support electronics.
P.S. Should the Mod find this question here inappropriate, please let me know and will
amend the post."
I believe this is the right thread to ask the question (as I have been asked to move my question to its own specific thread).
Do the rEVO Rebreathers meet EN61508 (in accordance to 5.13.1 EN14143:2003)?
On page 127 of the Sentinel Manual it says that EN61508 is satisfied and I believe APD
claims the same of his products.
It is quite an important feature for a rebreather, and I would like to know.
This is what the Sentinel and Ouroboros manuals say, for comparison, but the rEVO
Manual is silent on the subject:
"Functional Safety as set out in IEC 61508 and related safety issues have
been of particular importance in designing the SENTINEL LSS. Of
particular relevance has been the considerable diver input on types of
failure and user error within LSS systems, both in the mechanical and
control systems. From this direct hands-on information, safety systems
within the SENTINEL are higher than on any other current LSS. On top of
this, safety design has been the driving force behind the SENTINEL, to be
as forgiving as possible to diver error, and to component failures. From this
point of view, this section includes safety considerations that the
manufacturers have employed to provide the safest, most intuitive and
user-friendly LSS currently commercially available."
"Functional Safety as set out in IEC 61508 and related safety issues have
been of particular importance in designing the Ouroboros rebreather. Of
particular relevance has been the considerable diver input on types of failure
and user error within rebreather systems, both in the mechanical and control
systems. From this direct hands-on information, safety systems within the
Ouroboros are higher than on any other current rebreather. On top of this,
safety design has been the driving force behind the Ouroboros, to be as
forgiving as possible to diver error, and to component failures. From this point
of view, this section includes safety considerations that the manufacturers
have employed to provide the safest, most intuitive and user-friendly
rebreather currently commercially available."
Because I received no answer to my question, I dropped an email to RINA yesterday
asking the same question, but it would be nice if I could get a reply directly from the
manufacturer to understand the merits of one product vs. another particular in a critical
aspect of a rebreather like the life-support electronics.
P.S. Should the Mod find this question here inappropriate, please let me know and will
amend the post."
Last edited:
daniel f aleman
Contributor
Jim, yes as you infer, Wes' death was of his own making, and that's the point. Look at the last fifty CCR deaths, a lot of Course Directors there-- persons too valuable to lose needlessly.
Don't blind yourself to the history of it all. The Hogarthian way, remember? For those readers that don't:
The Hogarthian Concept - DeepHorizon
Don't blind yourself to the history of it all. The Hogarthian way, remember? For those readers that don't:
The Hogarthian Concept - DeepHorizon
I assume you're talking to me, but my name is Pete. I'm the other guy on my website.
I really don't have any sympathy for most of the people who die in caves or die on rebreathers. Here's why: In caves, virtually 100% of the time THEY caused their own death. On a rebreather, virtually every single time THEY caused their own death.
You know, 3 years ago, I had no intention of diving a rebreather EVER. I believed they were a box waiting to kill me, that there was no way possible to dive one and it not kill you. I believed that stupid quote some stupid "expert" said that 1 in 11 rebreathers sold ended up in a fatality. I had no frame of reference except what I heard from the masses. And that reference was based on information from 20+ years ago.
Then one day a good friend of mine offered me a class for next to nothing. Honestly, I had no intention of diving a rebreather, but the cost of the class was so cheap, I figured it was next to free education. I like education, so I took the class if for nothing else than to know what I didn't know about a subject in SCUBA. What I learned was very appealing to me. CCR diving was a lot like cave diving.
You see, what I like about Cave Diving is this: With the exception of Parker Turner, no one has ever died obeying Sheck's 5 rules of Cave Diving. Training, Guidelines, Air, Depth, Lights. So, if I obey all five of those rules, I get to live virtually every single time. Granted I could have a heart attack or get stuck in a collapse like Turner did. But if I obey 5 rules, I'm mostly certain I get to live. That's very simple to me.
On the rebreather, the same thing applies. The difference is, that I must now obey 35 rules. So what? Big Deal? If I follow the rules, I get to live. The interesting thing about CCR is, it diminishes my only fear in cave diving. With a CCR, I have the time to dig myself out of a collapse.
At any rate, I don't think Daniel Aleman is a troll. I think the other guy has some kind of agenda and would probably not classify him as a troll either. The funny thing is, he really thinks he's changing people's minds. When you whine over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... then you do it on forum after forum after forum after forum after forum, then you get banned and banned and banned, then you move to another forum, and start the process over again, people get sick of reading what you type. You get discounted as an obnoxious dork who just won't shut up. People might completely agree with what you have to say, but they're so sick of reading your crap, you lose all credibility. I immediately skip over anything he writes now. If he's gaining or conveying any pivotal insight, there's no chance I'll read it. And I'm probably not alone.
Look, if you are lazy, complacent, stupid -- GUESS WHAT?! Rebreathers are not safe.
We know this. We get this. Some of us don't care. We're going to dive with mitigated risk. You're not going to change our minds. We don't care about your "functional safety".
I really don't have any sympathy for most of the people who die in caves or die on rebreathers. Here's why: In caves, virtually 100% of the time THEY caused their own death. On a rebreather, virtually every single time THEY caused their own death.
You know, 3 years ago, I had no intention of diving a rebreather EVER. I believed they were a box waiting to kill me, that there was no way possible to dive one and it not kill you. I believed that stupid quote some stupid "expert" said that 1 in 11 rebreathers sold ended up in a fatality. I had no frame of reference except what I heard from the masses. And that reference was based on information from 20+ years ago.
Then one day a good friend of mine offered me a class for next to nothing. Honestly, I had no intention of diving a rebreather, but the cost of the class was so cheap, I figured it was next to free education. I like education, so I took the class if for nothing else than to know what I didn't know about a subject in SCUBA. What I learned was very appealing to me. CCR diving was a lot like cave diving.
You see, what I like about Cave Diving is this: With the exception of Parker Turner, no one has ever died obeying Sheck's 5 rules of Cave Diving. Training, Guidelines, Air, Depth, Lights. So, if I obey all five of those rules, I get to live virtually every single time. Granted I could have a heart attack or get stuck in a collapse like Turner did. But if I obey 5 rules, I'm mostly certain I get to live. That's very simple to me.
On the rebreather, the same thing applies. The difference is, that I must now obey 35 rules. So what? Big Deal? If I follow the rules, I get to live. The interesting thing about CCR is, it diminishes my only fear in cave diving. With a CCR, I have the time to dig myself out of a collapse.
At any rate, I don't think Daniel Aleman is a troll. I think the other guy has some kind of agenda and would probably not classify him as a troll either. The funny thing is, he really thinks he's changing people's minds. When you whine over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... then you do it on forum after forum after forum after forum after forum, then you get banned and banned and banned, then you move to another forum, and start the process over again, people get sick of reading what you type. You get discounted as an obnoxious dork who just won't shut up. People might completely agree with what you have to say, but they're so sick of reading your crap, you lose all credibility. I immediately skip over anything he writes now. If he's gaining or conveying any pivotal insight, there's no chance I'll read it. And I'm probably not alone.
Look, if you are lazy, complacent, stupid -- GUESS WHAT?! Rebreathers are not safe.
We know this. We get this. Some of us don't care. We're going to dive with mitigated risk. You're not going to change our minds. We don't care about your "functional safety".
