Rebreather Discussion from Brockville Incident

[gianaameri]

He was a great OC diver. He sucked on CCR. Most of his photo shoots required a CCR Babysitter to monitor his rebreather for him during the dive. That fateful day in West Palm was on one of the most complicated rebreathers out there. It was NOTHING like the rebreather he was trained on 20 years earlier. He had no babysitter. He had no bailout. He had no training on a very complicated rebreather.

I expect nothing less from anyone else to happen with the same conditions.

I understand Wes Skiles was diving an Optima which had Juergennsen Marine electronics.

I bought some years ago a head replacement for my Meg with Juergennsen Marine electronics (the "HammerMeg"). I never dived it and returned it to the manufacturer because it was not calibrating correctly (despite the insistence by the manufacturer that it was perfectly fine).

Juergennsen Marine does not require any special training cross-over course.

The electronics are not that complicated at all.

As a matter of fact, no rebreather electronics are complicated. They are complex and deadly, but not complicated. Mobile phones these days are more complicated.

I do not buy it one moment that Wes Skiles was unable to dive an Optima rebreather.

He died with the same dynamics a vast number of divers die using a rebreather. Pass out, and drown. Autopsy thereafter inconclusive (other than for the drowning).

You don't get to the bail-out whether you carry it or not. Buddies are unable to help. If you look at the dynamics of the fatalities, this is what they have in common. Bad gas is the disabling agent, followed by loss of consciousness, drowning, and death.

It can happen any time to anybody. We all have the same physiology.

You have to be incredibly lucky to get to the bail-out before passing out.

 

[doctormike]

... no rebreather electronics are complicated. They are complex and deadly, but not complicated.

"Boris: Sonja, are you scared of dying?
Sonja: Scared is the wrong word. I'm frightened of it.
Boris: That's an interesting distinction."

- Woody Allen, "Love and Death"

 

[Superlyte27]

I understand Wes Skiles was diving an Optima which had Juergennsen Marine electronics.

I bought some years ago a head replacement for my Meg with Juergennsen Marine electronics (the "HammerMeg"). I never dived it and returned it to the manufacturer because it was not calibrating correctly (despite the insistence by the manufacturer that it was perfectly fine).

Juergennsen Marine does not require any special training cross-over course.

The electronics are not that complicated at all.

As a matter of fact, no rebreather electronics are complicated. They are complex and deadly, but not complicated. Mobile phones these days are more complicated.

I do not buy it one moment that Wes Skiles was unable to dive an Optima rebreather.

He died with the same dynamics a vast number of divers die using a rebreather. Pass out, and drown. Autopsy thereafter inconclusive (other than for the drowning).

You don't get to the bail-out whether you carry it or not. Buddies are unable to help. If you look at the dynamics of the fatalities, this is what they have in common. Bad gas is the disabling agent, followed by loss of consciousness, drowning, and death.

It can happen any time to anybody. We all have the same physiology.

You have to be incredibly lucky to get to the bail-out before passing out.

Nearly every word of this post is completely untrue. Try again.

 

[gianaameri]

Nearly every word of this post is completely untrue. Try again.

Many common held beliefs about rebreathers are generally untrue.

People believe that pre-breathe is to warm the scrubber - untrue.

People believe that a 5 minute pre-breathe will detect a CO2 scrubber problem - untrue.

People believe that it is not going to happen to them (i.e. die) on rebreather - untrue.

People believe that they can bail-out before it happens to them (i.e. die) - untrue.

Since this post started with the Brockville incident, maybe we can look at the dynamics of that one:

http://www.underwatercouncil.com/downloads/incident_reports/ouc_2013_scuba_incident_reports.pdf

Then we can go one incident after another and look at the dynamics of each one.

Bad gas, pass out, drown, autopsy inconclusive - that is the Wes Skiles story and many other (my belief).

 

[Superlyte27]

"Bad gas, pass out, drown, autopsy inconclusive - that is the Wes Skiles story and many other (my belief)"

Lets just take one line from your last post, really, I don't wish to get in any debate with you. It's a waste of time to read anything you write. I lost complete respect for your opinion some 30 pages ago (from multiple threads in multiple forums).

But, back to the above quote:
It's completely likely that Wes had bad gas, meaning not the proper amount of O2. It's completely likely that Wes passed out. It's completely likely that he drowned. It's my contention and the contention of just about every instructor I've ever discussed the event with (and that's probably 10+ of the top instructors in the world) that he probably wouldn't had bad gas, probably wouldn't have passed out, and probably wouldn't have drowned if he HAD TRAINING ON THE FRIGGIN UNIT HE WAS DIVING!!! Seriously guys, pick another fatal incident. Because you have no leg to stand on trying to tell the masses that rebreathers are dangerous using Wes Skiles as your evidence. The guy had no friggin training on this unit. I'm sorry but a certification on the Cis Lunar Rebreather does not an Optima Diver make.

I'm friggin brilliant. I'm a badass cave diver and a pretty friggin awesome rebreather diver. I'm cocky as hell. I'm obnoxious as hell. I'm bullet proof and I have a wallet that says "badmotherfugger". Just kidding about the wallet part. At any rate, with all that said, there's no friggin chance in hell I'd EVER consider diving a unit I wasn't trained on. There's just SO much you can't possibly know moving from one unit to another. Add in the fact that the Optima is NOT a simple unit, add in the fact that Wes was known for being a TERRIBLE rebreather diver who almost always had a babysitter for photo shoots and what you have is a fatal outcome.

So please don't try to say, "even the great diver Wes Skiles couldn't survive a rebreather". Because it's bull****e. Wes was a great OC diver. Wes was probably the best photographer in the world. Wes was awesome in many ways, but Wes fugged himself when he strapped on a unit he had no business diving, plain and simple.

YES REBREATHERS ARE DANGEROUS. THEY ARE EVEN MORE DANGEROUS WHEN YOU ARE STUPID.

"That's all I got to say about that." - Forrest Gump

 

[gianaameri]

It's my contention and the contention of just about every instructor I've ever discussed the event with (and that's probably 10+ of the top instructors in the world) that he probably wouldn't had bad gas, probably wouldn't have passed out, and probably wouldn't have drowned if he HAD TRAINING ON THE FRIGGIN UNIT HE WAS DIVING!!!

I did burst out laughing on this one.

I was sold a HammerMeg (same electronics as the Optima I believe) and its use required no cross-over training whatsoever.

Calibrate and watch the pPO2 on the display. Anybody can do that to "Know your pPO2."

If you have 20+ years of dive experience, cave diving, rebreather diving - you do not need any training to look at the pPO2 on Juergenssen electronics.

Plus, the HUD vibrates if the pPO2 is outside of range... so - on the assumption the electronics to include the O2 Sensors are working properly - not a chance you will miss a dangerous pPO2.

If he were diving a Classic Inspiration it would be another story. On Juergenssen electronics all the angles are covered (if electronics and O2 Sensors are functioning properly) and are a no-brainer to calibrate (provided of course you had already prior diving/nitrox/rebreather general experience/exposure).

You can convince a non-rebreather diver with your argument - not a rebreather diver.

 

[Superlyte27]

It's hilarious that you bang that drum for "functional safety" over and over again, but you're against formal education on a rebreather. Do you see how you lose all credibility with that stance? Your argument is directly opposite of what every single training organization and virtually every technical instructor teaches.

What's the bigger crime/killer? your "functional safety" or lack of training, when it comes to any fatality in scuba. That's rhetorical. We all know the answer.

Respect is hard to earn after you've lost it. Find a new drum if you want people to start listening to you.

 

[gianaameri]

It's hilarious that you bang that drum for "functional safety" over and over again, but you're against formal education on a rebreather. Do you see how you lose all credibility with that stance? Your argument is directly opposite of what every single training organization and virtually every technical instructor teaches.

What's the bigger crime/killer? your "functional safety" or lack of training, when it comes to any fatality in scuba. That's rhetorical. We all know the answer.

Respect is hard to earn after you've lost it. Find a new drum if you want people to start listening to you.

I got more C-Cards that I can fit in 3 or 4 wallets... I am all in favour of "formal training."

Too bad that the people who are supposed to have the knowledge have such great misconceptions about rebreathers (and end-up dead).

The issue with Wes Skiles is that given that he had extensive experience and training and Juergenssen Marine requires no cross-over training for the purchase and use of its electronics (and indeed none is required because they are extremely straightforward), it is just not plausible that Wes Skiles - given all his prior training and experience - was unable:

a. to calibrate the electronics
b. look at the pPO2 numbers in the display
c. feel the HUD vibrate if the pPO2 went out of range.

"Functional Safety" of the rebreather is more likely to be a potential problem than Wes Skiles alleged inability to calibrate a display, look at a display, feel a HUD vibrating pPO2 warning - and respond.

All the O2 sensors were older than 18 months and old O2 Sensors tend to fail intermittently before they fail entirely. I'd look more at the Functional Safety of O2 Sensors when they are old (indeed they should not be used by the diver), than bashing on Wes Skiles and his skills like you did in one of the posts below.

The pattern in the fatalities when some very experienced rebreather diver dies (and we have had many) is that prior to his death he is a hero, great explorer, great discoverer, great diver, great instructor... - and after his death he becomes an idiot.

It is just not plausible that Wes Skiles with all his experience and training could not respond to Juergennsen Marine electronics information (but nice try for trying to sell that one to another rebreather diver).

 

[Dsix36]

I got more C-Cards that I can fit in 3 or 4 wallets... I am all in favour of "formal training."

Too bad that the people who are supposed to have the knowledge have such great misconceptions about rebreathers (and end-up dead).

The issue with Wes Skiles is that given that he had extensive experience and training and Juergenssen Marine requires no cross-over training for the purchase and use of its electronics (and indeed none is required because they are extremely straightforward), it is just not plausible that Wes Skiles - given all his prior training and experience - was unable:

a. to calibrate the electronics
b. look at the pPO2 numbers in the display
c. feel the HUD vibrate if the pPO2 went out of range.

"Functional Safety" of the rebreather is more likely to be a potential problem than Wes Skiles alleged inability to calibrate a display, look at a display, feel a HUD vibrating pPO2 warning - and respond.

All the O2 sensors were older than 18 months and old O2 Sensors tend to fail intermittently before they fail entirely. I'd look more at the Functional Safety of O2 Sensors when they are old (indeed they should not be used by the diver), than bashing on Wes Skiles and his skills like you did in one of the posts below.

The pattern in the fatalities when some very experienced rebreather diver dies (and we have had many) is that prior to his death he is a hero, great explorer, great discoverer, great diver, great instructor... - and after his death he becomes an idiot.

It is just not plausible that Wes Skiles with all his experience and training could not respond to Juergennsen Marine electronics information (but nice try for trying to sell that one to another rebreather diver).

Lets forget about Wes for a moment and talk about another optima diver who died. I will not mention the name out of respect for those he left behind. this person was an INSTRUCTOR on the optima and had formal training in hh electronics. The diver passed out as he was swimming for his buddy and the alarms were indeed working. The BO was non functional, the O2 was off, the rebreather was completely functional and the gasses were appropriate. This diver had his O2 off and was warned by the electronics and still ended up dead.

I assume that your "functional safety" was the reason for this too. In this case we actually know for a fact that the electronics were performing properly, can't be said for all other cases.

Sorry to break the news to you but even with all your BS posts and rants, you can't fix stupid, not even with duct tape.

 

[gianaameri]

Lets forget about Wes for a moment and talk about another optima diver who died. I will not mention the name out of respect for those he left behind. this person was an INSTRUCTOR on the optima and had formal training in hh electronics. The diver passed out as he was swimming for his buddy and the alarms were indeed working. The BO was non functional, the O2 was off, the rebreather was completely functional and the gasses were appropriate. This diver had his O2 off and was warned by the electronics and still ended up dead.

I assume that your "functional safety" was the reason for this too. In this case we actually know for a fact that the electronics were performing properly, can't be said for all other cases.

Sorry to break the news to you but even with all your BS posts and rants, you can't fix stupid, not even with duct tape.

That shows how dangerous rebreathers are. You forget to turn on your O2, and know you have a problem, and don't even make it to your buddy for help.

A rather stupid way to die.

Put in the hands of recreational divers, the ones who do maybe 10 - 20 dives a year, and put their regulators upside down sometimes, and are bound to make silly mistakes same as everybody else - what is the point to hand them a rebreather for a 15 - 30 meter Open Water dive?

Wes Skiles died in 18 meters of water. Had he been on OC, he would still be alive.

All these recreational divers do not need a rebreather - absolutely pointless for them to do 10 - 20 dives a year in 15 - 30 meters of water and assume the added risk (and cost of a rebreather).

If a rebreather cannot be made safe, let us just leave it for those divers and dives where a rebreather actually offers benefits which outweigh its inherent risks.

Instead, NO - the industry keeps it secret that it is since 2003 that they cannot meet the "Functional Safety" requirements when building a rebreather, then change the rebreather standard and remove precisely the Clause (i.e. 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003) which they cannot meet, then they go after a class of divers for whom a rebreather is totally inappropriate... THAT IS WHAT I CALL STUPID!

It risks backfiring on the industry big time (unless some new technology becomes available to reduce what we can all see are the inherent risks of the current generation of rebreathers).

Short-term some people will make money.

Instructors get what $1000 - 1500 per course PLUS 10% on the rebreather they sell (that is what ISC paid back then when I bought my Meg).

Manufacturers get 10k for something which costs very little to produce (and R&D costs are minimal once you remove the Functional Safety requirement).

I think it will backfire though in the medium-term because insurers will eventually stop playing ball because their business model cannot sustain the fatality rates of rebreathers (or insurance premiums for rebreathers will have to go up as rebreathers become a larger % of the diving market).

You are right though, I can't fix stupid!