Rebreather Discussion from Brockville Incident

[gianaameri]

I was thinking he's more like the "Rain Man" of rebreathers. You know, kinda like an idiot savant minus the savant.

Dr. Mitchell is also an idiot?

Dr. Luca Luccarini?

Dr. Concannon?

Your passion for rebreathers is admirable, but...

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[mathauck0814]

Dr. Mitchell is also an idiot?

Dr. Luca Luccarini?

Dr. Concannon?

Your passion for rebreathers is admirable, but...

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And you are Dr.... Who again? Sorry, I forgot.

 

[gianaameri]

And you are Dr.... Who again? Sorry, I forgot.

I am the "idiot sauvant" - don't you remember?

Now, let me put a question to you.

You have two tools (machines): A. and B.

Machine A:

1. Is so complex that if you fail to follow a check-list it will kill you (Dr. Concannon).
2. Even if you do everything right and it works 100% of the times, it can kill you (Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Luca Luccarini)
3. It costs $10k plus $2k in training and spares

Machine B:

1. It is so simple that does not require a check-list.
2. If you do everything right, it cannot kill you.
2. It costs less than $1k including training and you do not need spares (it works, and works, and works)

Which one would you pick for 10 - 20 dives a year to 15 - 30 meters?

Let us add 1 more layer.

The 10 - 20 dives you do on your two well-deserved holiday trips a year.

Machine A:

1. The best of its kind the USN has determined it has a failure rate of 5%.
2. The types Dr. Fock is exposed to he says has a failure rate of 15% (3 times higher off the top of my head)

Machine B:

No failures.

Which one would you pick for your two week well deserved holiday trips a year?

Hmmm... let me think.... 10k + 2k... so complex that it requires a check-list... I get the check-list wrong I die... I can die even if I do everything right... lots of the times it does not work...

This is really a tough one for a Tec Diver "rebreather pilot" ....

Man, only an idiot would say that a rebreather is safer/better (or even as safe) than an OC regulator for recreational diving - UNLESS OF COURSE HE/SHE IS TRYING TO SELL YOU A REBREATHER + TRAINING + SPARES + CONSUMABLES...!!!

 

[mathauck0814]

I am the "idiot sauvant" - don't you remember?

Now, let me put a question to you.

You have two tools (machines): A. and B.

Machine A:

1. Is so complex that if you fail to follow a check-list it will kill you (Dr. Concannon).
2. Even if you do everything right and it works 100% of the times, it can kill you (Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Luca Luccarini)
3. It costs $10k plus $2k in training and spares

Machine B:

1. It is so simple that does not require a check-list.
2. If you do everything right, it cannot kill you.
2. It costs less than $1k including training and you do not need spares (it works, and works, and works)

Which one would you pick for 10 - 20 dives a year to 15 - 30 meters?

Let us add 1 more layer.

The 10 - 20 dives you do on your two well-deserved holiday trips a year.

Machine A:

1. The best of its kind the USN has determined it has a failure rate of 5%.
2. The types Dr. Fock is exposed to he says has a failure rate of 15% (3 times higher off the top of my head)

Machine B:

No failures.

Which one would you pick for your two week well deserved holiday trips a year?

Hmmm... let me think.... 10k + 2k... so complex that it requires a check-list... I get the check-list wrong I die... I can die even if I do everything right... lots of the times it does not work...

This is really a tough one for a Tec Diver "rebreather pilot" ....

Man, only an idiot would say that a rebreather is safer/better (or even as safe) than an OC regulator for recreational diving - UNLESS OF COURSE HE/SHE IS TRYING TO SELL YOU A REBREATHER + TRAINING + SPARES!!!

Divers who include cost as a variable in decision making frankly scare the bejesus out of me. That said, if I do dives that occasionally require a rebreather, I'd rather do all of my dives on that rebreather so that I'm not only using my CCR on the biggest dives I do.

 

[gianaameri]

Divers who include cost as a variable in decision making frankly scare the bejesus out of me. That said, if I do dives that occasionally require a rebreather, I'd rather do all of my dives on that rebreather so that I'm not only using my CCR on the biggest dives I do.

Fair enough.

You train the way you fight, and you fight the way you train.

However, if you are a recreational diver doing 10 - 20 dives a year, why on earth would you buy a rebreather (if you were told the full picture)?

 

[mathauck0814]

Fair enough.

You train the way you fight, and you fight the way you train.

However, if you are a recreational diver doing 10 - 20 dives a year, why on earth would you buy a rebreather (if you were told the full picture)?

I'm with you 110% on that. I've said as much previously.

 

[rongoodman]

So how many recreational divers doing 10-20 dives a year are buying rebreathers? It looks like a bit of a straw man argument to me.

 

[gianaameri]

So how many recreational divers doing 10-20 dives a year are buying rebreathers? It looks like a bit of a straw man argument to me.

For that it is too early to say... the PADI marketing machine has just started and Tec Rec Rebreathers are a new thing.

Statistics will be available from DAN and BSAC and we will get reports like this (a few years from now):

https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/Fatalities_Proceedings.pdf

Maybe, of the fatalities to date, do we have already any recreational diver yet on Rec Tec rebreathers, or the dead are only the "experts" (i.e. rebreather instructors and other internet forum "rebreather pilots")?

Mr. Ronald Brow was doing a 27 meter buddy dive on a MKVI Poseidon - anyone know if the deceased was a Rec Tec or a Tec Tec (and how many dives a year he would generally do)?

What about the other MKVI fatalities - Rec Tec (PADI type) divers or Tec Tec (internet forum "rebreather pilots"/Tec instructors) divers?

Not to single out Poseidon, but that is a PADI Rec unit...

 

[Superlyte27]

I am the "idiot sauvant" - don't you remember?

Now, let me put a question to you.

You have two tools (machines): A. and B.

Machine A:

1. Is so complex that if you fail to follow a check-list it MIGHT will kill you (Dr. Concannon).
2. Even if you do everything right and it works 100% of the times, it MAY kill you (Dr. Mitchell and Dr. Luca Luccarini)
3. It COULD costs $10k plus $2k in training and spares

Machine B:

1. It is so simple that does not require a check-list. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS, CHECK ABOVE WHERE I MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE AN IDIOT SAVANT MINUS THE... NM
2. If you do everything right, it cannot kill you. HOLY CRAP! ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Um, even if you do everything right, sometimes shiit happens
2. It costs less than $1k including training and you do not need spares (it works, and works, and works) THIS IS LAUGHABLE

Which one would you pick for 10 - 20 dives a year to 15 - 30 meters?

Let us add 1 more layer.

The 10 - 20 dives you do on your two well-deserved holiday trips a year.

Machine A:

1. The best of its kind the USN has determined it has a failure rate of 5%. THIS IS THE SAME US NAVY who's handheld gps units it issues to it's people have a +/- 100' accuracy, as opposed to the Magellan I bought at Walmart for 100 bucks that can get me within 2meters.
2. The types Dr. Fock is exposed to he says has a failure rate of 15% (3 times higher off the top of my head)

Machine B:

No failures. How many OC dives have you made? I've made less than 150 this year, but I can tell you that of those 150 there's been more than one failure. Dude, if you want to win an argument, you really gotta employ some common sense.

Which one would you pick for your two week well deserved holiday trips a year? It depends on the dives. If I'm going to 300' in a cave 4000' back. CCR. If I'm going to the reefs with my wife in 10' of water.... I'll take an AL50 OC

Hmmm... let me think.... 10k + 2k... so complex that it requires a check-list... I get the check-list wrong I die... I can die even if I do everything right... lots of the times it does not work...


Man, only an idiot would say that a rebreather is safer/better (or even as safe) than an OC regulator for recreational diving - UNLESS OF COURSE HE/SHE IS TRYING TO SELL YOU A REBREATHER + TRAINING + SPARES + CONSUMABLES...!!! NO ONE HERE IS SAYING THEY ARE AS SAFE OR SAFER for all types of diving. CCR is safer for some types of diving. Dude, have you been reading this thread that you are so popular in? What we are saying is that they ARE not as dangerous as you say they are. Also, I don't teach CCR. I don't sell any CCR. I don't sell training, spares, consumables. Truth be told, I sell absolutely nothing for a rebreather except maybe gas.

I made some comments to your post above. Look, it's obvious what's going on here. This is like being in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. When you make comments like OC has no failure points, it's honestly painfully and embarrassingly obvious that no one should be arguing with you. It's a complete waste of our brain power. Seriously, if I were related to you, I'd be embarrassed for you because of your inability to see (or not see) the lack of logic in this post.

I'm truly done (in fact gianaameri is going on ignore, I can't be bothered with his dribble, but lack the ability not to read it). For those of you who have an open mind. CCR's are wonderful. But not for everyone. They are dangerous, but not as dangerous for some as others. They can make your diving unbelievably easy, warm, and fantastic. If you are lazy, cheap, dirty or dumb (and a host of other adjectives) rebreathers can and probably will kill you. If you are diligent, they can open up another level of diving for you safely. If you'd ever like to discuss this logically, and listen to my OPINIONS stated as opinions, and not as fact you can email, pm or call me. I'm not a CCR expert by anyone's standards but I can give you my point of view. Three years ago, I thought they were a gas bag of death out to kill me. But people mock what they don't understand.

 

[dfx]

THIS IS THE SAME US NAVY who's handheld gps units it issues to it's people have a +/- 100' accuracy, as opposed to the Magellan I bought at Walmart for 100 bucks that can get me within 2meters.

Totally unrelated to anything, but this is BS. The 100' accuracy on GPS was for civilian receivers before SA (selective availability) was turned off in May 2000. Military receivers have always had high accuracy thanks to the encrypted P(Y) code.