Rebreather Discussion from Brockville Incident

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Totally unrelated to anything, but this is BS. The 100' accuracy on GPS was for civilian receivers before SA (selective availability) was turned off in May 2000. Military receivers have always had high accuracy thanks to the encrypted P(Y) code.

The giant brick that weighed almost 10lbs they issued to my brother was terrible. Of course he got out in.... 1999'ish. He started college in about 2001 and it was before he went to college. At any rate, a lot of what the military uses is the same crap they were using 20+ years ago. It takes them a long time to change. So saying that "the best the navy has" has X amount of safety is kind of silly. This is the same military that still uses AR-15/M16's when there is clearly a better gun/round available. Or issuing the same crappy flack jacket and plate armor from 50 years ago when Dragon Scale armor has proven to be far superior. But that's another story.
 
When you make comments like OC has no failure points...

You know I never wrote that "OC has no failure points."

A first and second stage are highly reliable, unlike a rebreather, and although they have failure points, the failure rate is so low that we hardly ever see one fail.

Where iy fails, usually is just after service (generally human error).

Furthermore, 1st and 2nd stage regulators used for recreational diving are designed to fail safe, the rare time they fail.

Rebreathers on the other hand, are not designed to fail safe. They cannot be designed to fail safe given the current state of technology.

They have massive failure rates (USN has determined the Meg has about a 5% failure rate, despite being the rebreather of their choice. Some rebreathers they won't touch... we are talking failure rates above 15% and they fail dangerously).

I have not read your remaining comments and will do so tonight and respond (busy day).
 
I do not make/design rebreathers. I modify existing ones for my own use to reduce risk to an acceptable level to myself (i.e. as low as reasonably practicable). In the process it is fun and I learn a lot of interesting things.


The problem is the sensing technology which is designed to work on land at ambient pressure, but not in a rebreather.


Same thing with galvanic O2 Sensors.


Galvanic O2 Sensor as a technology is effective on the surface in ambient air, but less effective and reliable in a rebreather (with tragic consequences).


The problem with the CO2 Sensors is that a. some tend more than others to go off calibration even on normal use on land and require recalibration. These are unsuitable for rebreather use (i.e. you do not want a sensor which drifts off of its own volition in use, at least not easily and frequently), and b. all use infrared and a tiny mirror and require pre-heating and heating.


So, no CO2 sensor likes humidity...


The one I have used in the inhale counterlung works fine provided it is not stored while not used in a rebreather. So, if you insert before the beginning of the dive and remove it at the end of the dive, it is stable.


If you leave it in a rebreather after the dive, you will need to let it dry before using it again for about 24 hours, and it will work fine again. You cannot accelerate the drying process by blowing dry air over it (not even blowing dry air for 12 hours will accelerate the drying process). No re-calibration is necessary because it is stable (on occasion you need to make sure it is still accurate by blowing on it a known gas mix like 1% CO2 and 99% N).


Different brand of absorbents seem to affect the mirror surface destroying it (which makes you wander what absorbents do to your lungs). It works with Sofnolime.


That is on the inhale side, in the counterlung, which is one of the drier and more stable temperature wise and least aggressive environment.


On the exhale side it is not dry. The closer you get to the mouthpiece, the worst it gets. You need to measure the very last portion of the breath to measure the end-tidal arterial CO2 (which is what matters), so the further away you place it from the mouth, the least accurate the measurement it gets.


Basically, it is a technology which won't work reliably inside a rebreather loop on the exhale side.


On the inhale side, when it fails, it fails reading high, which is fail-safe, because say instead of bailng out at 0.5% pCO2, you'd be bailing out at 0.3% pCO2 (which is safer).


In any event, if zero CO2 is what you want in a rebreather, 0.3% pCO2 you are already heading towards the beginning of a slippery slope.


So, my solution (for fun, I am not in the rebreather business nor ever care to be) is not to place it inside the rebreather, but on the body where it is a less aggressive environment.


I suspect the break-through will come when you can swallow a pill and this will measure various physiological parameters and transmit them wirelessly to a wrist display.


The reality though is that no one has been able to design and build one such device ("End-tidal CO2 Monitor") and make it available to the general public, which means that rebreathers cannot protect the end-user from CO2 retention (and a host of other risks) - users can pass-out and drown without warning.


For recreational diving, go sidemount on OC - safer and good fun (more fun than rebreathers)!


I'm not sure the sometimes vitriolic responses on this thread are actually justified, when positions aren't that far apart. Personally I have been learning quite a bit which I think has to be good. Actually I am one of those almost 50, people with sufficient funds to consider purchasing one of these units, so I like to hear both sides of this argument before I commit one way or the other. I consider myself an experienced OC diver (within Rec limits) and I dive regularly (usually at least weekly when at home and two or three times a year on diving expeditions of some sort). I also make it a habit to practice skills regularly and to ensure I'm not "cheating" or kidding myself, get an instructor friend to "validate" my skills on a regular basis.


As may have been surmised I am interested in the Hollis Explorer. Now to test some of my understanding of the dangers the sCCR may present to me, which at the moment I look at this way:


- Arterial CO2 retention and measurement on the exhale side, which I understand in this context is primarily driven by the physiological impact of breathing gas denser than exists at seal level. Given density increases with depth and this unit is designed only to go to 40m, unless an individual is particularly susceptible to CO2 retention, it is less of an issue as the gas would not be dense enough to produce outcomes more dangerous than OC at this depth. In this I am presuming that OC is equally subject to this phenomena as CCR, given gas density seems to be the key issue (though I acknowledged that WOB in a CCR may be higher than OC).


- Inhale CO2 has has multiple ways of being assessed, CO2 sensor (though like one of the other posters I have heard that this may now be an optional extra), temp probe, scrubber cartridge duration timer and comprehensive and automated pre-dive checks including pre-breath and calibration. In addition unit cannot be breathed if scrubber is not inserted.


- Oxygen Tox in this unit is not likely to be any greater issue than Nitorx OC as MOD would have to be equally respected under either.


- three redundant O2 sensors subject to calibration testing pre dive.


- multiple ways to alert diver if error conditions exist including HUD (with vibrating mouth piece) and a system designed to tell you what to do, not what is wrong (which basically involves bail out via BOV or sling tank). I also understand that the unit has a light on the top of it to let a buddy know what is happening with it.


- All electronics are fully potted and simple BOV is standard and unit only uses a single nitrox gas. There is also a valve to ensure any moisture in the loop is exited from the unit on each exhale (though I'm not exactly sure how that works).


- I'm also told by the manufacturer that the unit is "fully CE certified", but to be fair haven't (yet) sighted a certificate or the standard to which its been accredited.


There are probably quite a few things I've missed from the design as I have not actually had the chance to play with an Explorer in detail, but when I look at the above, from a risk management perspective, while the risks are different from OC (some risks more and others less dangerous) I am not seeing that the unit is going to try and kill me. I do acknowledge that this is new technology and therefore by definition extra risk exists. However, the training required to be certified from what I understand, is far greater than OC (which I might add, having seen a few of my friends recently OC certified worries the heck out me with how little they know or are taught!).


For any interested in why I might pursue such a course of action I am a very keen photographer (alas not that talented) and wreck diver. In addition the dryness of the OC gas I find quite debilitating. I consider myself very diligent and detail oriented, and the fail safes in the above unit and the thinking behind its design, in combination, lead me to believe the risks are acceptable.


OK, so no flames, and I fully acknowledge I am a novice in the world of CCR (and sCCR), but I am interested in any and all critiques on the above and any ways the unit might try to kill me that I haven't yet understood.
 
I'm not sure the sometimes vitriolic responses on this thread are actually justified, when positions aren't that far apart. Personally I have been learning quite a bit which I think has to be good. Actually I am one of those almost 50, people with sufficient funds to consider purchasing one of these units, so I like to hear both sides of this argument before I commit one way or the other. I consider myself an experienced OC diver (within Rec limits) and I dive regularly (usually at least weekly when at home and two or three times a year on diving expeditions of some sort). I also make it a habit to practice skills regularly and to ensure I'm not "cheating" or kidding myself, get an instructor friend to "validate" my skills on a regular basis.


As may have been surmised I am interested in the Hollis Explorer. Now to test some of my understanding of the dangers the sCCR may present to me, which at the moment I look at this way:


- Arterial CO2 retention and measurement on the exhale side, which I understand in this context is primarily driven by the physiological impact of breathing gas denser than exists at seal level. Given density increases with depth and this unit is designed only to go to 40m, unless an individual is particularly susceptible to CO2 retention, it is less of an issue as the gas would not be dense enough to produce outcomes more dangerous than OC at this depth. In this I am presuming that OC is equally subject to this phenomena as CCR, given gas density seems to be the key issue (though I acknowledged that WOB in a CCR may be higher than OC).


- Inhale CO2 has has multiple ways of being assessed, CO2 sensor (though like one of the other posters I have heard that this may now be an optional extra), temp probe, scrubber cartridge duration timer and comprehensive and automated pre-dive checks including pre-breath and calibration. In addition unit cannot be breathed if scrubber is not inserted.


- Oxygen Tox in this unit is not likely to be any greater issue than Nitorx OC as MOD would have to be equally respected under either.


- three redundant O2 sensors subject to calibration testing pre dive.


- multiple ways to alert diver if error conditions exist including HUD (with vibrating mouth piece) and a system designed to tell you what to do, not what is wrong (which basically involves bail out via BOV or sling tank). I also understand that the unit has a light on the top of it to let a buddy know what is happening with it.


- All electronics are fully potted and simple BOV is standard and unit only uses a single nitrox gas. There is also a valve to ensure any moisture in the loop is exited from the unit on each exhale (though I'm not exactly sure how that works).


- I'm also told by the manufacturer that the unit is "fully CE certified", but to be fair haven't (yet) sighted a certificate or the standard to which its been accredited.


There are probably quite a few things I've missed from the design as I have not actually had the chance to play with an Explorer in detail, but when I look at the above, from a risk management perspective, while the risks are different from OC (some risks more and others less dangerous) I am not seeing that the unit is going to try and kill me. I do acknowledge that this is new technology and therefore by definition extra risk exists. However, the training required to be certified from what I understand, is far greater than OC (which I might add, having seen a few of my friends recently OC certified worries the heck out me with how little they know or are taught!).


For any interested in why I might pursue such a course of action I am a very keen photographer (alas not that talented) and wreck diver. In addition the dryness of the OC gas I find quite debilitating. I consider myself very diligent and detail oriented, and the fail safes in the above unit and the thinking behind its design, in combination, lead me to believe the risks are acceptable.


OK, so no flames, and I fully acknowledge I am a novice in the world of CCR (and sCCR), but I am interested in any and all critiques on the above and any ways the unit might try to kill me that I haven't yet understood.

Hollis Explorer would be my first choice as Rec rebreather. comparing rebreathers on paper.

However, rebreathers on paper they all look great. I would not criticise a single one.

It is entirely different in practice, as you will have the opportunity to find out when you purchase one.

As your instructor may point out to you, a rebreather WOB at 40 meter on Air is greater than the same rebreather WOB at 100 meters on Heliox 10/90.

He should also explain to you that a rebreather WOB is multiples than an OC regulator WOB.

CO2 retention risk is the highest on rebreather at 40 meters on Air - dive it like you are used to dive OC, and at 40 meters the risks on rebreathers are multiples relative to the same dive OC.

Checklists - your instructor and the Manuals will tell you that if you make a mistake or don't follow one, you will die.

Believe them, it is true.

They forget to tell you that you can die even if you do everything right.

They forget to tell you that manufacturers have also a Checklist to follow with more than 50 steps to complete, but manufacturers don"t always follow their Checklist.

They forget to tell you that while trains, cars, airplanes, medical devices, boats... all things you are familiar meet their Checklist, your rebreather does not.

It does not because they can't build a machine which protects the user from hypercapnia (CO2 retention), and hypoxia and hyperoxia (electronics and galvanic O2 sensors can't meet Functional Safety, that is Clause 5.13.1 of the manufacturer Checklist).

Use it if you want, but don't be surprised at the unexplained and mounting numbers of rebreather fatalities.

What is the WOB of the Hollis Explorer?

Of the Poseidon MKVI?

Others?

Ask, and if you get fudge instead of a straight answer, it is the first sign maybe, just maybe...

The USN sets a max. WOB for rebreathers with Air diluent to 2.0 joules/liter.

Rebreathers are deceitfully simple for the newbie and the uninformed.



Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2
 
Last edited:
Hollis Explorer would be my first choice as Rec rebreather. comparing rebreathers on paper.

However, rebreathers on paper they all look great. I would not criticise à single one.

It is entirely different in practice, as you will have the opportunity to find out when you purchase one.

As your instructor may point out to you, a rebreather WOB at 40 meter on Air is greater than the same rebreather WOB at 100 meters on Heliox 10/90.

He should also explain to you that a rebreather WOB is multiples than an OC regulator WOB.

CO2 retention risk is the highest on rebreather at 40 meters on Air - dive it like you are used to dive OC, and at 40 meters the risks on rebreathers are multiples relative to the same dive OC.

Checklists - your instructor and the Manuals will tell you that if you make a mistake or don't follow one, you will die.

Believe them, it is true.

They forget to tell you that you can die even if you do everything right.

They forget to tell you that manufacturers have also a Checklist to follow with more than 50 steps to complete, but manufacturers don"t always follow their Checklist.

They forget to tell you that while trains, cars, airplanes, medical devices, boats... all things you are familiar meet their Checklist, your rebreather does not.

It does not because they can't build a machine which protects the user from hypercapnia (CO2 retention), and hypoxia and hyperoxia (electronics and galvanic O2 sensors can't meet Functional Safety that is Clause 5.13.1 of the manufacturer Checklist).

Use it if you want, but don't be surprised at the unexplained and mounting numbers of rebreather fatalities.

What is the WOB of the Hollis Explorer?

Of the Poseidon MKVI?

Others?

Ask, and if you get fudge instead of a straight answer, it is the first sign maybe, just maybe...

The USN sets a max. WOB for rebreathers with Air diluent to 2.0 joules/liter.

Rebreathers are deceitfully simple for the newbie and the uninformed.



Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2

Thank you for such a comprehensive response and some more good questions to ask especially around WOB. Why is the WOB of a rebreather on air multiples greater than OC at 40 m? Is the friction impact really that great, does it vary with position? I'm also curious, I went back through a few of your earlier posts and you use a rebreather for some cave dives because it is logistically easier, but based upon the above and some of your earlier comments, is it logical to conclude you believe your rebreather will eventually kill you? If that is true, why do you do it, is any cave dive worth that if that is really what you believe or am I missing something?
 
Thank you for such a comprehensive response and some more good questions to ask especially around WOB. Why is the WOB of a rebreather on air multiples greater than OC at 40 m? Is the friction impact really that great, does it vary with position? I'm also curious, I went back through a few of your earlier posts and you use a rebreather for some cave dives because it is logistically easier, but based upon the above and some of your earlier comments, is it logical to conclude you believe your rebreather will eventually kill you? If that is true, why do you do it, is any cave dive worth that if that is really what you believe or am I missing something?

I do not perceive nyself better or luckier than those who already died, and I operate under the assumption that the rebreather can kill me even if I do everything right.

It is just a dose of realism.

On a SCUBA regulator you have positive pressure from a SCUBA tank and the venturi effect on the 2nd stage - measured WOB is lower.

On a rebreather, you are using your lungs to pump gas around a loop, no positive pressure and venturi - higher measured WOB.

I could dive less consecutive days, penetrate the cave less, and pay people to carry my tanks - when I am older, I will, and do it OC.

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2
 
I do not perceive nyself better or luckier than those who already died, and I operate under the assumption that the rebreather can kill me even if I do everything right.

It is just a dose of realism.

On a SCUBA regulator you have positive pressure from a SCUBA tank and the venturi effect on the 2nd stage - measured WOB is lower.

On a rebreather, you are using your lungs to pump gas around a loop, no positive pressure and venturi - higher measured WOB.

I could dive less consecutive days, penetrate the cave less, and pay people to carry my tanks - when I am older, I will, and do it OC.

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2

Thanks, that makes sense, basically a risk management decision for you as we'll then. Accepting your premise about the dangers, and given that everybody is a newbie at some point, what is the best way to learn while minimizing (to the extent possible) the risks you face? This possibly sounds like something where learning from your mistakes is not so advisable!!

re WOB, do they have a standard measurement for OC as well as CCR?
 
Thanks, that makes sense, basically a risk management decision for you as we'll then. Accepting your premise about the dangers, and given that everybody is a newbie at some point, what is the best way to learn while minimizing (to the extent possible) the risks you face? This possibly sounds like something where learning from your mistakes is not so advisable!!

re WOB, do they have a standard measurement for OC as well as CCR?

To learn minimising risk you need a mentor and access to truthful and not incomplete information.

The WOB measurement standard for rebreathers is in EN14143:2003 and for OC in EN250, but the USN has done more research on establishing safe WOB limits. There are declassified NEDU docs. on the subject.

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2
 
Hollis Explorer would be my first choice as Rec rebreather. comparing rebreathers on paper.

However, rebreathers on paper they all look great. I would not criticise a single one.

It is entirely different in practice, as you will have the opportunity to find out when you purchase one.

As your instructor may point out to you, a rebreather WOB at 40 meter on Air is greater than the same rebreather WOB at 100 meters on Heliox 10/90.

He should also explain to you that a rebreather WOB is multiples than an OC regulator WOB.

CO2 retention risk is the highest on rebreather at 40 meters on Air - dive it like you are used to dive OC, and at 40 meters the risks on rebreathers are multiples relative to the same dive OC.

Checklists - your instructor and the Manuals will tell you that if you make a mistake or don't follow one, you will die.

Believe them, it is true.

They forget to tell you that you can die even if you do everything right.

They forget to tell you that manufacturers have also a Checklist to follow with more than 50 steps to complete, but manufacturers don"t always follow their Checklist.

They forget to tell you that while trains, cars, airplanes, medical devices, boats... all things you are familiar meet their Checklist, your rebreather does not.

It does not because they can't build a machine which protects the user from hypercapnia (CO2 retention), and hypoxia and hyperoxia (electronics and galvanic O2 sensors can't meet Functional Safety, that is Clause 5.13.1 of the manufacturer Checklist).

Use it if you want, but don't be surprised at the unexplained and mounting numbers of rebreather fatalities.

What is the WOB of the Hollis Explorer?

Of the Poseidon MKVI?

Others?

Ask, and if you get fudge instead of a straight answer, it is the first sign maybe, just maybe...

The USN sets a max. WOB for rebreathers with Air diluent to 2.0 joules/liter.

Rebreathers are deceitfully simple for the newbie and the uninformed.



Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2


Amazing that you can give such a detailed opinion about a unit that has not even hit the market, yet! Where you one of the few trained on it to be an instructor???

regarding WOB: please please PLEASE STOP making it sound that it is soooooooo hard to breathe on CCR!! Because it is not! WOB does varies between different units. So my advice to incoming CCR or SCR prospects is: try it out for yourselves! If it is such a horrible problem, why are there so many of us diving and enjoying to dive CCR???? Please, it's ok to read this stuff on any forum, but you have to experience it yourself.

Also Giannameri: since you keep ranting and inferring how much money is being made by those who sell parts and consumables, what is the profit margin???? Go tell, I dare you especially for the US. What is the profit selling a unit? If u decide to give figures, please give me the gross and anybody here owning and running a business will be able to figure how much of that is left after taxes and overhead!

---------- Post added July 12th, 2013 at 10:29 AM ----------

That being said, going cave diving now. The Pit in Mexico on CCR - of course!!!!
 
Amazing that you can give such a detailed opinion about a unit that has not even hit the market, yet! Where you one of the few trained on it to be an instructor???

regarding WOB: please please PLEASE STOP making it sound that it is soooooooo hard to breathe on CCR!! Because it is not! WOB does varies between different units. So my advice to incoming CCR or SCR prospects is: try it out for yourselves! If it is such a horrible problem, why are there so many of us diving and enjoying to dive CCR???? Please, it's ok to read this stuff on any forum, but you have to experience it yourself.

Also Giannameri: since you keep ranting and inferring how much money is being made by those who sell parts and consumables, what is the profit margin???? Go tell, I dare you especially for the US. What is the profit selling a unit? If u decide to give figures, please give me the gross and anybody here owning and running a business will be able to figure how much of that is left after taxes and overhead!

---------- Post added July 12th, 2013 at 10:29 AM ----------

That being said, going cave diving now. The Pit in Mexico on CCR - of course!!!!

On paper the Hollis Explorer is very good - on paper I repeat.

It is a hybrid SCR and it has features which other re-breathers lack.

One notable example of such feature - inability to dive it without a scrubber - would have saved one life which instead was lost on the MKVI rebreather.

I can tell you that on the Meg back when I bought mine the kick-back which the manufacturer was paying the instructor for selling me a Meg was 10% (more precisely $1000).

As to WOB, laughable your comments: "try it out for yourselves!!" - but more than laughable outright dangerous and misleading.

WOB is not something which you "feel" as a newbie (or an expert) trying a unit in a pool.

It is something which is measured according to a specific methodology under set conditions and then hyperbaric specialists based on best knowledge of human physiology and peer-reviewed research establish safe maximum parameters.

The USN max. safe WOB limit for Air dives (the Tec Rec rebreathers depth limit) is 2.0 j/l (this is not based on "feel" and you cannot "feel" the j/l of your rebreather).

If you could "feel" the WOB in j/l of your rebreather the standards would not mandate precise test and parameters on sophisticated equipment.

To compare available WOB data for rebreathers you can click here:

http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/safety/ComparativeObjectiveWOBRebreatherDatabase.xlsx

The Reference at the bottom of the spreadsheet offers links to NEDU research and other information for those who want to learn more on WOB (rather than "trust" the "advise" they read from "rebreather pilots" and "rebreather salesmen" on internet forums).
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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