Rebreather - Cost of Ownership

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Per other standards, your first few points are true ... and there is a lot of great information.

But with reading along with the OP, he's GUE Tech1 and looking into CCR, so that leaves the natural progression into CCR1 (GUE) with the JJ.

With the JJ and the GUE curriculum, its a little more stringent than most manufacturers and other organizations when it comes to Cells and Sorb .... 12months from MANUFACTURE on cells, and new scrubber every technical dive (at the CCR1 level)

_R


This is something that @victorzamora and I got into some pretty heated arguments for literally years about.

  • Cells-you don't actually need cells annually. You need cells when you need cells. Budget for them annually, but some may go 4 months, some may go 24 months. Don't replace cells until they need to be replaced, same as rebuilding regulators every year. Rebuild them when they need it.
    • Budget $250
  • Sorb/gas-need a full scrubber when you need a full scrubber. If you are doing 2 hour dives, that 2-3 dives depending on scrubber size. A recent study was done that says partially used sorb can just sit around for months and be just as good, if not better, than it was when you finished the first dive. Budget a pound an hour and you're saying 20 technical dives, but you'll use the CCR for most everything at least for a while. 20 tech dives@2hrs=40hrs so round up and say 100hrs/yr. Gas use is about a liter/minute of O2 and Dil which rounds up to say 300cf of each.
    • $400 in sorb
    • $150-300cf of O2 at rounded up Amigos pricing *$0.46/cf*
    • $200-300cf of 18/45 at rounded up Amigos pricing *50/50 of $0.17 EAN32 and $0.96 helium*
  • The o-rings and flapper valves don't need to be replaced annually, and if you're smart you'll find the sizes and buy them in bulk. Maybe $50/year if you over buy them, and then you'll have to service the two extra first stages every couple of years, so budget $50/year in reg rebuilds.
    • $100/year
  • $300 in miscellaneous fills for deco/bailout bottles or the random open circuit dives, etc.
  • I won't include any open circuit stuff because you will need it for both situations, so this list is "in addition to my normal OC stuff".
So roughly speaking, you'll be shelling out $1400 in consumables for the rebreather. You'll pro Ish, but that's for 100 total hours of diving. Right now you're saying 20 dives/year which is probably around 40 hours, and it's costing you around $2500/year in gas bills, not including any non-technical diving that you're doing. It will save you roughly a grand a year given your current diving habits *with a LOT of assumptions so don't quote me on any of it. Your gas pricing may be higher than Amigos pricing by more than what I rounded them up to which is the only one that would make it super wonky. Everything else is pretty conservative.

Saving $1k/year in dive costs then has to outweigh the buy-in price. You're in for $10k in a brand new CCR with Mod1 training. Probably $12k if you go the GUE route with the GUE-JJ *I have no idea what that actual cost is*. Add another $1500 for redoing normoxic trimix since you can't use OC normoxic as a pre-req for hypoxic *which is retarded, but whatever*, then another $1500 for hypoxic.
If that investment pays off, then you can justify the rebreather on gas savings. Saving $1k a year though doesn't do much for you. If you increase the trimix dives because it isn't so cost prohibitive and go from 40hrs to 100hrs, then you're now saving almost $5k/year in helium and it's a no-brainer. If you want to justify it based on other factors like extra warmth, silence, no tick-tock from the SPG, cool factor, etc etc. then do that. It won't cost you more/year than diving open circuit trimix, but it's a long ROI at 20dives/year
 
Per other standards, your first few points are true ... and there is a lot of great information.

But with reading along with the OP, he's GUE Tech1 and looking into CCR, so that leaves the natural progression into CCR1 (GUE) with the JJ.

With the JJ and the GUE curriculum, its a little more stringent than most manufacturers and other organizations when it comes to Cells and Sorb .... 12months from MANUFACTURE on cells, and new scrubber every technical dive (at the CCR1 level)

_R

That's not absolutely necessary. He may not want to do the GUE version of CCR, which uses their own unique configuration of the JJ. I think that they also do the RB80, not sure. The GUE JJ is very different from the stock unit - it involves two manifolded de-inverted larger (50 CUF?) tanks for dilout. I guess there are advantages of it, but I have a buddy who dives that and it seems pretty cumbersome.

So if he wants to do CCR, there are plenty of options besides that.
 
@tbone1004
Tom, no need to retake normoxic with GUE. Ccr1 certifies to Tech1 levels after 25 dives. After enough experience ccr1 divers can take cave ccr or ccr2. Ccr2 incorporates both ccr and oc skills training from tech2.
 
True ... I normally dive a KISS Sidekick unit, and also am GUE CCR1..

I don't know why you think it is cumbersome, Heavier (on land) and bigger, yes. I dive it with a 600g of undergarment (400g and a 200g vest), and can manipulate the O2 valve easily, even if it is on the backside of the unit.


While the OP didn't say CCR1, they did mention Tech 2, which you can do in the JJ (CCR2)

_R

That's not absolutely necessary. He may not want to do the GUE version of CCR, which uses their own unique configuration of the JJ. I think that they also do the RB80, not sure. The GUE JJ is very different from the stock unit - it involves two manifolded de-inverted larger (50 CUF?) tanks for dilout. I guess there are advantages of it, but I have a buddy who dives that and it seems pretty cumbersome.

So if he wants to do CCR, there are plenty of options besides that.
 
For the hard costs of a CCR ...


Here's my numbers with my KISS unit

$12401.50 for Training, Unit, Travel and other expenses to get into the unit.

My costs:
Sorb: $25 for a 5.xlb of Sofnolime
Nitrox: $35/5000L ($.007/L)
O2/50%: $40/1-2000L ($.02-.04/L)
21/35: $200/5000L ($.04/L)

Savings per dive:
<30m 30minutes (recreational dive)
OC:
2400L Nitrox - $16.80

CC:
1/6 of scrubber - $4.17
30L O2 - $1.20
120L Nitrox - $0.84
Total - $6.14

Savings: 10.66 over OC


<30m 60minutes (shallow T1 dive)
OC:
4800L Nitrox - $33.60
480L O2 - $19.20
Total - $52.80

CC:
1/3 Scrubber - $8.34
75L O2 - $3.00
120L Nitrox - $0.84
Total - $12.18

Savings: $40.62


<45m 30min dive (T1 Trimix)
OC:
3300L 21/35 - $132
1500L 50% - $30
Total: $162

CC:
1/3 Scrubber - $8.34
60L O2 - $2.40
165L 21/35 - $6.60
Total: $17.34

Savings: $144.66



Now, this doesn't include the CCR1 rule of new scrubber every tech dive, the savings will not be as much then (but still substantial).

OC Bailout isn't factored in, as it hopefully is a one time cost and is negligible over several dives.

Will it pay for itself? Not easily, nor in any fashion of time.

My yearly maintenance on the KISS is cells, and o-rings. I use the same number of regs as I would in OC, so that cost isn't factored in the comparisons.

As for yearly maintenance on the GUE-JJ (for tech diving), it has 5 first stages (2 on the DIL, 1 O2, 1 Drysuit, 1 OC Deco) and 3 Second Stages (Longhose, bungee, deco)

3 Cells every 12months from manufacture

Spare o-rings, flapper valves, etc

Hoses as required (easily double than a T1 OC setup)



Hope this helps,


_R
 
That’s what I meant by cumbersome...
Agreed! But it is no different than a T1 doubles setup.

(It also feels like I'm diving a large deep freezer on my back compared to my KISS) ... but that's any back mount unit :P


_R
 
Personally, I do somewhere around 20 technical dives per year. All of my tech dives were on 18/45 with 50% deco gas. Filling my back gas and deco gas averages anywhere from $120-$140 per dive. Gas wise what savings in gas expenditure can I expect?

Thank you,
O.
Are you filling your own tanks or are these shop prices?
 
@_Ralph I was trying to be generic and all the manufacturers say dump a cell after 12 months, but it's a CYOA thing, same as rebuilding regulators every year. Just because that's what the course says you need to do, doesn't mean you actually have to do it. Same with a new scrubber on every tech dive. The science doesn't back it up. No different than GUE divers using computers instead of tables, dive smarter! Also they really say 12 months from manufacture? That's INSANE! I have cells that are currently 14/16/20 months old of use, plus another probably 4-6 from manufacturer and are still better than 95% linear and not exhibiting any signs of current limiting. When they are from the mfg, they're in an anoxic environment in the bag, and "fresh" cells being less than 6 months old really don't need to be replaced after 6 months of diving. That's incredibly wasteful.

Either way, the costs I gave were to replace every year and do all of the things that people say you are "supposed to do".

@doctormike the rig isn't that bad. I have a rack with 50's, a pair of 3l's *one more than the GUE setup*, and a meg in it. It's no worse than a set of big doubles *LP120's* and IMO a helluva lot less cumbersome than a "Standard" rebreather and sidemounted 50's.

@Jack Hammer where are you buying your cells from if they're that expensive? $75 each from DGX.
 
Yup honey I'm saving $$ when I dive a rebreather. And I'll make more dives and save even MORE $$.

For the win!
 

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