RE: high incidence of SWB deaths in Hawaii among freedivers

[fishb0y]

I agree that alot push their limits... but I tell ya what, I think the number that freedive in Hawaii is far too low. You got local out here freediving at an early age, and like Jimbo said, the frequency of the dives is alot higher.

 

[neophyte]

This is pure speculation, and free to boot, so take it for what it's worth. I'm no freediver either; I've been 30 feet down at the most, with no instruction other than a very little reading here.

Could the often remarkable viz (compared to most of the continental US, so far as I know/have experienced) have something to do with it?

I did the deep dive for my AOW in Hawaii, and could see the surface very clearly from the bottom at 100fsw. That seems like the sort of thing that would make a person MUCH less nervous/anxious/on edge etc...

My understanding is that SWB happens during the last few seconds/feet of an ascent (hence the SW). Maybe those few extra seconds are the ones people are less likely to try to squeeze out when they're just that little bit less comfortable. It's not even necessarily a conscious thing.

The fishing leading to less planning makes a lot of sense to me too.

Just a thought,

Adam

 

[DennisS]

Kirk Krack of performance freediving gave a good talk at the Blue Wild Spearfishing seminar. They deal with shallow water blackout all the time. He showed one film clip to emphasize the point that blackout can occur at the surface after a few breaths. The woman surfaced, gave the OK sign, took a few breaths, blacked out and started to sink, all the while holding up OK sign. I'd always thought, once you were on the surface, you didn't have to worry about blackout.

He also introduced the guy that has the world record- 366 feet with mask and fins.
http://www.performancefreediving.com/

 

[5ata]

That physiological process that occurs with SWB is a result of lowered partial pressures of O2 near the surface after extending a deep dive. Dive physics and physiology really come into play here and they show what happens as a result.

The brain is starved for O2 and you black out - that's the laymans version of what happens. SWB occurs even in less than ideal conditions, but is usually more prevelent in clearer waters.

 

[kidspot]

I agree that alot push their limits... but I tell ya what, I think the number that freedive in Hawaii is far too low. You got local out here freediving at an early age, and like Jimbo said, the frequency of the dives is alot higher.

So you think that the number of incidents per dive hour would be similar? Makes sense...

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Kidspot,

First, how are you doing in Maui after the big show of the earthquake yesterday? Hopefully, you and everyone there are okay.

Second, I've been in the safety field for many years now, and we look at fatality rates for industries. Logging is about the only industry with a fatality rate that was over 100 (in Oregon), and that was in the 1980s when everyone was employed and working hard in the woods. Now, it's down a bit. If your reporting of 6 deaths per 5000 is correct, that's a rate of 120 per 100,000. That makes it about as hazardous as logging in the 1980s in Oregon.

That's pretty bad, bad enough that someone needs to look at it and try to figure out why. I've noticed the number of deaths reported in Hawaii Skin Diver magazine about a year ago, and that was quite a few too.

5ata, we're pretty close together, you know. Eugene and Beaverton are not that far away.

SeaRat

 

[5ata]

Second, I've been in the safety field for many years now, and we look at fatality rates for industries. Logging is about the only industry with a fatality rate that was over 100 (in Oregon), and that was in the 1980s when everyone was employed and working hard in the woods. Now, it's down a bit. If your reporting of 6 deaths per 5000 is correct, that's a rate of 120 per 100,000. That makes it about as hazardous as logging in the 1980s in Oregon.

That's pretty bad, bad enough that someone needs to look at it and try to figure out why. I've noticed the number of deaths reported in Hawaii Skin Diver magazine about a year ago, and that was quite a few too.

5ata, we're pretty close together, you know. Eugene and Beaverton are not that far away.

SeaRat

By stating those statistics, what I read into it has to do with proper education - something that alot of freedivers feel they don't have to do since they don't need no stinking cert cards - but I counter that mindset by stating that information/education is a powerful tool to reduce ones potential for an accident or even fatality.

Spearo's are the worst when it comes to this - I have seen my fair share of spearo's who have lousy technique, over-inflated ego's, and poor buddy diving skills. :shakehead

I've even gotten to the point that if a spearo comes to me and asks for hints - I more or less tell them sorry - if you aren't willing to go through the whole process of learning to freedive properly, you need to find out somewhere else - I have spent years researching and studying with top level freedivers and I'm not about to give away my hard earned knowledge just because they are cheap or too lazy to do it the right way. You won't find a scuba instructor giving away his knowledge for free. :no

I'm getting off my soapbox now...

Yeah - you're right - only about 90 minutes away from me.

 

[Charlie99]

http://www.aloha.com/~lifeguards/drownings93_97.html has some general info on drownings in Hawaii 1993-97. Figure 5 show that scuba fatalities/drowning were pretty much evenly split between residents and non-residents ------12 vs. 11.

OTOH, freediving deaths were 10 residents to only 1 non-resident. That fits my anectdotal observations that a lot of locals are out hunting. My spearfishing freedivers I encounter are hunting alone. Whether nor not those incidents were swb is questionable, since a lot of fatalities are simply "he went out spearfishing and never came back".


Some other interesting items in the report:
9 Hawaii residents and 0 visitors died picking opihi. (limpet/shellfish that grows in the surf zone).
9 Hawaii residents and 0 visitors died while fishing from the shore (usually caught by a large wave).

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I've even gotten to the point that if a spearo comes to me and asks for hints - I more or less tell them sorry - if you aren't willing to go through the whole process of learning to freedive properly, you need to find out somewhere else - I have spent years researching and studying with top level freedivers and I'm not about to give away my hard earned knowledge just because they are cheap or too lazy to do it the right way. You won't find a scuba instructor giving away his knowledge for free.

Wow that is very impressive! So you won't give away any hints, even if it might save a diver's life. Sounds like you have the ego problem more than the spearos.

Plus you are totally wrong about most scuba instuctors, I'm sure that if anyone asks most of them a specific question or hint they will be glad to share the information for free! Look at all the excellent info that is given for free on this board. I personally will offer advice to a diver, even if it is unsolicited if I perceive that it might prevent an accident.

I've seen excellent instructors play this game perfectly.. they will talk about a certian type of diving, give a few hints and then tell you that there are many more important tricks and techniques that they will be happy to teach you when you finally take the course. Telling someone to "buzz off" because they won't take a full course from you at this point in time makes you sound like an arrogant dick.. Hope that's not true?

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I hope that Kidspot is okay, and only tending to necessities or that the electricity is off or something. I heard that no one was killed in Hawaii from the earthquake, but that doesn't mean there wasn't significant damage. I hope he checks in when he has a chance.

I'm studying the study provided in the link above. It appears to give some interesting information, but from my first reading it doesn't really help identify the problems specific to the snorkelers and free divers.

SeaRat