I dove my non-padded BP in Cozumel with a polartec. You don't even know it's there.
The things are freak'n amazing!
Roak
ranger --> ebay --> BP/Wing
- Thread starter jetblast00
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
The things are freak'n amazing!
Roak
Shoot... help me out here.... I musta mist it.
There is one vote for:
***I did the BP/Wing --> ebay --> other maneuver***
But I didn't see a post describing from what to what & why....
There is one vote for:
***I did the BP/Wing --> ebay --> other maneuver***
But I didn't see a post describing from what to what & why....
landlocked
Contributor
Nope, wasn't me. I didn't vote. I did the really really pretty tech bc => ebay => Zeagle Scout thing. I seems that I haven't gotten my free demo ride in a BP Wings yet.
I do have a point that I would like to make. There seems to be a propensity to throw all non-BPWings into one or two categories. Either all BC's together or, all Jacket style and all pretty Tech BC's together. To me there is a big difference in the various brands and models. It makes me think that you don't truly appreciate my uniqueness when you classify my new BC in the same category as my old one! You see, i like my new BC because:
Pro's
1. Simple design making less drag in the water.
2. Absolutely easer to pack.
3. No integrated weights allowing me to use a weight belt to better adjust trim.
4. Does not have all the built in bells and wistles of a Jacket/Tech styled BC or BP/Wings with the added associated costs. ($210 complete.)
Anyway, you get the idea. I'm being a smart a...
landlocked
Contributor
(Hit the submit button instead of the preview button. Sort of got caught with a not quite polished up post.) I really wanted to tone it down just a little. ;-0
;-0I really found this thread useful as there is so much in-depth reporting of people's preferences and experiences with different types of BC's. My thanks to all the posters here. For us newbies this saves a lot of months of diving with things we've bought and then find something better. I had just the 4 pool dives for experience with standard and back-inflation BC jackets, but that was enough to see the obvious problems (to me). The discussion here sounded logical as to advantages of BP/wings, so I tried them. See my report in Netboy79's thread below. I guess my thought as to why the advocates of BP/wings are so vocal is precisely because there is little other advocacy available for a system that is found to be clearly superior for so many users (notice I'm not saying ALL users; it's clear from this thread that there are plenty of folks and reasons for other BC's to be preferred). But I've found practically no other mention of, much less advocacy of, the BP/wing system. My LDS's, the mail order places on the web, the major print advertising, heck, even the PADI manual and videos (the manual mentions backplates as being an old and obsolete system), all scream conventional BC vests, either wrap-around, back-inflation, and/or "tech" style (does that just refer to lots of D-rings?). It seems obvious to me (though of course I can't know for sure) that the mfrs of these items would have trouble keeping profits up if they just made the standard BP/wing system. I believe that system would be very inexpensive if mass produced in the same volumes as the currently popular BC's. And with everyone competing to build essentially the same system, it would surely be a "commodity" item (witness Fred T.'s backplate, which undercuts Halcyon in price, while exceeding it in quality-- oops, I haven't seen a Halcyon plate-- I only say this because of my information that the Halcyon is 304 SST, while Fred's is 316 SST, and what I do know for sure is that 316 has significantly better corrosion resistance in salt water). Geez, if you imagined SeaQuest getting BP/wings mass produced in Taiwan with the same quality materials but low-cost labor, same simple design, I bet they could sell the whole rig for $200 or less! But there goes the profit if several companies are competing on basically price alone (hence the term commodity).
So I don't _blame_ the BC companies for their marketing strategy-- that's their job, to make a profit-- but I very much understand AND appreciate the urge some folks have to "spread the word" about BP/wings. [This is not at all condoning, BTW, anyone's flaming or bashing another poster who prefers other BC's or who disagrees with the advantages of BP/wings.]
Anyway, thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to write up your experiences and opinions on bouyancy systems here.
Boy, now I'm wasting time when I ought to be working!
Regards,
Peter
So I don't _blame_ the BC companies for their marketing strategy-- that's their job, to make a profit-- but I very much understand AND appreciate the urge some folks have to "spread the word" about BP/wings. [This is not at all condoning, BTW, anyone's flaming or bashing another poster who prefers other BC's or who disagrees with the advantages of BP/wings.]
Anyway, thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to write up your experiences and opinions on bouyancy systems here.
Boy, now I'm wasting time when I ought to be working!
Regards,
Peter
Burke
Guest
people do sell backplates on ebay, looks like a pretty good deal to.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1835617770
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1835617770
Hi,
As many of the regular posters here will tell you, I too have been going abck and forth, back and forth, over if I like the BP or BC better. Planning on just being a rec diver for now, not sure I see ALL the benefits of the BP jump out at me as many have said.
After I complete my Check Out DIves this weekend over 2 days, I will be back and most what MY thoughts were on this vs my partners and fellow students BC's and how they moved thru the water, etc. naturally, I understand that NONE of us are anywhere's near the caliber of experience in skills or style as others here are with much more experience.
I CAN say from using the rig in the pool, that:
*It WAS very streamlined and EASY to glide thru the water
*It WAS easy to look down and SEE your waist, feet, etc. without all the bulk of the BC midsection
What I found, and this is just ME speaking here, was that getting used to the BACK inflation of being forced into the head down position at the surface was frustrating. Now, i realize that this is because I have been used to a BC jacket inflation model - but I was wondering, there 'has' been cases where folks have had to stay IN the water for hours when the boat accidently left them, etc. Or a situation where your buddy has to get a unconscious diver to the surface to float him. My concern IS, how does one adapt or overcome to the back inflation 'situations.'
I HAVE found the BP and harness to be a pain to adjust, but once I DID get it right, it was fine. Just took some fiddling with it. MY unit didn't come all assembled, and my only fripe was, NEW 2" webbing is mightly STIFF to work the sliders where you want them.....thats was tricky.
Tips: Make SURE you get the harness tight enough so your tanks doesn't twist or roll around other than vertical. Make sure your crotch strap IS snugged up. That makes a big differance.
But the BIG thing I found good about the message board was, despite getting into a 'fray' on BP's and BC's here - many people here mean well, and talk from experience. Listen to them - even IF you think YOUR idea's makes 'sense' to you.
I have recently had Instructors call me aside to tell me, "Hey, off the record, I dive a BP and wings and not a BC much, but hey, I can't TELL you that during your courses."
My reply was "Ahhhh, Uncle Pug was more correct that even I knew - and others. They know whats REALLY going on behind the lines...
Oh and, PS....I just heard a story the other day in the LDS of someone's Fastex buckle breaking, not just coming apart, during a dive. While that may be no big deal at a 40 ft rec dive, I wonder if it would be at a 200 ft dive?
Anyways, I'll come back with MY report of what I found to be true, for ME, Sunday PM when this is all done. I'm thinking I am going to find the OW scenario's much differant that our pool sessions, and the THEORY of all the books, web sites, and magazines articles that I have read for months.
As many of the regular posters here will tell you, I too have been going abck and forth, back and forth, over if I like the BP or BC better. Planning on just being a rec diver for now, not sure I see ALL the benefits of the BP jump out at me as many have said.
After I complete my Check Out DIves this weekend over 2 days, I will be back and most what MY thoughts were on this vs my partners and fellow students BC's and how they moved thru the water, etc. naturally, I understand that NONE of us are anywhere's near the caliber of experience in skills or style as others here are with much more experience.
I CAN say from using the rig in the pool, that:
*It WAS very streamlined and EASY to glide thru the water
*It WAS easy to look down and SEE your waist, feet, etc. without all the bulk of the BC midsection
What I found, and this is just ME speaking here, was that getting used to the BACK inflation of being forced into the head down position at the surface was frustrating. Now, i realize that this is because I have been used to a BC jacket inflation model - but I was wondering, there 'has' been cases where folks have had to stay IN the water for hours when the boat accidently left them, etc. Or a situation where your buddy has to get a unconscious diver to the surface to float him. My concern IS, how does one adapt or overcome to the back inflation 'situations.'
I HAVE found the BP and harness to be a pain to adjust, but once I DID get it right, it was fine. Just took some fiddling with it. MY unit didn't come all assembled, and my only fripe was, NEW 2" webbing is mightly STIFF to work the sliders where you want them.....thats was tricky.
Tips: Make SURE you get the harness tight enough so your tanks doesn't twist or roll around other than vertical. Make sure your crotch strap IS snugged up. That makes a big differance.
But the BIG thing I found good about the message board was, despite getting into a 'fray' on BP's and BC's here - many people here mean well, and talk from experience. Listen to them - even IF you think YOUR idea's makes 'sense' to you.
I have recently had Instructors call me aside to tell me, "Hey, off the record, I dive a BP and wings and not a BC much, but hey, I can't TELL you that during your courses."
My reply was "Ahhhh, Uncle Pug was more correct that even I knew - and others. They know whats REALLY going on behind the lines...
Oh and, PS....I just heard a story the other day in the LDS of someone's Fastex buckle breaking, not just coming apart, during a dive. While that may be no big deal at a 40 ft rec dive, I wonder if it would be at a 200 ft dive?
Anyways, I'll come back with MY report of what I found to be true, for ME, Sunday PM when this is all done. I'm thinking I am going to find the OW scenario's much differant that our pool sessions, and the THEORY of all the books, web sites, and magazines articles that I have read for months.
I appreciate the way you presented this and your honesty with the new readers about your experience level, vacillation and frustration... and I for one will be interested to read your report after this weekend.
A few points if I may:
1) Surface floation for extended periods with back inflation ~ I never did like it with the Zeagle Ranger as it was always a balancing act with the weight integration... the weights always wanted to roll me over face down and I like to swim on my back.
However with the backplate/harness/wing I am completely stable on my back... especially with the doubles but even with a single steel 104 too.... and that is one of my favorite parts of the dive... just floating there relaxing on the world's largest water bed. It is something you can not only learn but enjoy.
2) I don't know if you had proper help and instruction in setting up and using the bp... I wish that I could have been there to help you in person and truncate our collective exasperation... it is very easy to rig and adjust the harness when you know what you are doing... if you are just doing it for the first time looking at pictures on the web then it could be a pain... it is very easy to use a properly adjusted bp/wing if you get some help setting it and yourself up... it is very easy to get into and out of a bp/wing if you have someone show you a few little tips and the thing is set up right.
3) A plastic buckle breaking at 200' isn't as likely nor as big a deal as a plastic buckle breaking while you are climbing the ladder back onto the boat with 150# of doubles rig on your back!
Rockhound
Guest
I learned to dive on an AT PAC back in the 70's. (One of the first "techy" rigs, although I learned to dive it in my basic class. It was never "sold" as a tech rig, although is was promoted as a more advanced type of system, requireing special training.
Does anyone remember their motto, "Dive with Your Brains, Not Your Back"?
I still have it and can still dive it, as everything works perfectly. Because of its age and the lack of replacement parts, I will not take in the water anywhere outside of our local lake.
It was not a simplistic rig, but with only one hose, nothing in front of the diver but straps, and a hollow backplate filled with shot, it was perfectly streamlined underwater and balanced both at the surface and underwater. I even had the futuristic fiberglass "clamshell" for it, but didn't like it and only made one dive with it installed. But, as for the basic BC, I really loved it.
It had problems, including some serious design flaws, like the routing of the inflator hose INSIDE the exhaust hose and the potential for corrosion in the marble and lead shot weight mix that could prevent jettisoning of the weights in an emergency (you learned to pull the pin and do the AT PAC "butt wriggle", which is probably NOT what you would have done in a real emergency).
I did not experience either of these problems, but I inspected the inflator hose and deliberately dumped the weights in a barrel a couple of times a year.
I did witness an inflator related accident, when an instructor's inflator hose burst and literally pinned him to the cavern roof at Jug Springs. Lacking any sort of quick dump, this accident would have been very serious in open water, since it "rushed" him to the roof. But in the cavern entrance, it was mainly an inconvenience.
I finally got rid of my AT PAC in 1990 when a dive boat operator tried to ban me from his boat in Destin because "those stupid old fashioned back floatation systems were too damned dangerous." I was already tired of the grief I took on a previous trip to Cozumel, so I bought a "new style" Sherwood Prototype BC called The Spirit.
I hated that little BC, but I made dives with it for 12 years and it held up well. There was no support in the back, much less a backplate and when my air got low, my tank and rig would float up and bump my head and irritate the hell out of me. It was unbalanced underwater and ill fitting and I finally bought something new.
A few weeks ago, I bought a new Ranger BC. It didn't have a solid backpack/plate, but it felt good when I tried it on. All the stitching looked first rate and the construction was definitely heavy duty. I made a lake dive with it yesterday and it felt and worked great.
Underwater balance was wonderful, topside balance will require some trim weight I think, but my overall weighting requirements were less because it trapped less air. I had no trouble keeping upright on the surface, unless I way overflated the bladder, which at 44lbs. of lift, represents a bit of overkill.
The Ranger "fit" me quite well and felt very secure. For me, the lack of bulging wraparound floatation made the pockets a non issue.
I would have preferred a "no pockets" rig, since I think pockets on BC's, especially in the inconvenient locations they are placed, are a bit gimmicky and impractical. I much prefer my old method of clipping a pocket bag to my waist and strapping the bottom of it to my thigh.
But my Ranger was fairly inexpensive and I couldn't justify going to their "Tech BC" for fewer pockets and an extra waist clip, but more money. Besides, when I bought it, I had never heard of this forum, nor had I heard of "DIR" or the new focus on simple backplate rigs. If I had, I might have looked more closely at that alternative.
Like someone else posted, I am not a tek diver, I am a rec diver. I purchased the Ranger because it suited the type of diving I do (open water, usually above 60 degrees in a skin or 6mm wetsuit, no deeper than 110', but often weighted with camera gear and other junk.)
I think I'll like it for that type of diving.
If I decide to go "tek", I will sign up for training, buy the recommended gear and go from there.
Does anyone remember their motto, "Dive with Your Brains, Not Your Back"?
I still have it and can still dive it, as everything works perfectly. Because of its age and the lack of replacement parts, I will not take in the water anywhere outside of our local lake.
It was not a simplistic rig, but with only one hose, nothing in front of the diver but straps, and a hollow backplate filled with shot, it was perfectly streamlined underwater and balanced both at the surface and underwater. I even had the futuristic fiberglass "clamshell" for it, but didn't like it and only made one dive with it installed. But, as for the basic BC, I really loved it.
It had problems, including some serious design flaws, like the routing of the inflator hose INSIDE the exhaust hose and the potential for corrosion in the marble and lead shot weight mix that could prevent jettisoning of the weights in an emergency (you learned to pull the pin and do the AT PAC "butt wriggle", which is probably NOT what you would have done in a real emergency).
I did not experience either of these problems, but I inspected the inflator hose and deliberately dumped the weights in a barrel a couple of times a year.
I did witness an inflator related accident, when an instructor's inflator hose burst and literally pinned him to the cavern roof at Jug Springs. Lacking any sort of quick dump, this accident would have been very serious in open water, since it "rushed" him to the roof. But in the cavern entrance, it was mainly an inconvenience.
I finally got rid of my AT PAC in 1990 when a dive boat operator tried to ban me from his boat in Destin because "those stupid old fashioned back floatation systems were too damned dangerous." I was already tired of the grief I took on a previous trip to Cozumel, so I bought a "new style" Sherwood Prototype BC called The Spirit.
I hated that little BC, but I made dives with it for 12 years and it held up well. There was no support in the back, much less a backplate and when my air got low, my tank and rig would float up and bump my head and irritate the hell out of me. It was unbalanced underwater and ill fitting and I finally bought something new.
A few weeks ago, I bought a new Ranger BC. It didn't have a solid backpack/plate, but it felt good when I tried it on. All the stitching looked first rate and the construction was definitely heavy duty. I made a lake dive with it yesterday and it felt and worked great.
Underwater balance was wonderful, topside balance will require some trim weight I think, but my overall weighting requirements were less because it trapped less air. I had no trouble keeping upright on the surface, unless I way overflated the bladder, which at 44lbs. of lift, represents a bit of overkill.
The Ranger "fit" me quite well and felt very secure. For me, the lack of bulging wraparound floatation made the pockets a non issue.
I would have preferred a "no pockets" rig, since I think pockets on BC's, especially in the inconvenient locations they are placed, are a bit gimmicky and impractical. I much prefer my old method of clipping a pocket bag to my waist and strapping the bottom of it to my thigh.
But my Ranger was fairly inexpensive and I couldn't justify going to their "Tech BC" for fewer pockets and an extra waist clip, but more money. Besides, when I bought it, I had never heard of this forum, nor had I heard of "DIR" or the new focus on simple backplate rigs. If I had, I might have looked more closely at that alternative.
Like someone else posted, I am not a tek diver, I am a rec diver. I purchased the Ranger because it suited the type of diving I do (open water, usually above 60 degrees in a skin or 6mm wetsuit, no deeper than 110', but often weighted with camera gear and other junk.)
I think I'll like it for that type of diving.
If I decide to go "tek", I will sign up for training, buy the recommended gear and go from there.
Similar threads
