Quick snip-et of personal news

[The Chairman]

Don't hold anything back OK???

My son was certified when he was 11, and he is probably one of THE most conscientious divers I know. Glad I got him certified before he is smitten with the smells of perfume and gasoline. Just like older divers, every young diver is unique. Some are ready, some will never be ready... even when they are forty. Just as you have made a conscientious decision for your kids; so have I. I probably put in just as much thought and care, we just have arrived at two completely different solutions. Go figure.

As a dad, I understand your "passion" when it comes to your children. Anyone mess with mine, and they will find a reformed pacifist on their hands... and they are the worst kind! Nope, you can dis me, cuss me, even hit me, and I WILL turn the other cheek. When it comes to my kids, ain't no one wants to see me change into my Mr. Hyde outfit!!!

I do think that one of the many benefits we have on this board, is the ability that most of us possess to hear an opinion professed so strongly, and then NOT take offense at it. No flames, no prolonged hatreds... just a few soap boxes come out, and we express why anyone disagreeing with us has an IQ of 10 (just not in those words, of course ), and that any normal, mom and apple pie loving American should be on our side.

 

[Ontario Diver]

But Pete, I'm not a "mom and apple pie loving American"

I'm a "hockey and beer loving Canadian"

So....... Do the rules change for me?

 

[wheezy]

I love this forum, so much diversity and so much good information. I agree that it's the instructor, not the shop or organization. HOWEVER, it is really partly the shops fault in the case of we hired him, we pay him and we feel that he is good.

And I DO believe that there are some fundamental issues with PADI and it's structure in regards to having someone who has NEVER been diving can be an instructor in about 6 months time.

Albeit this really has nothing to do with the topic but none the less... HOW do you really know who is instructing your child? I'll end this with a final note:

Obviously there are some VERY intelligent people in this forum and in "our" group as divers. If EVERY precaution is taken in finding the right instructor and the right place to learn and you as a parrent are a VERY experienced diver and will be with your child... maybee it's O.K. and it beats the heck out of them playing video games I guess... Just PLEASE PLEASE think twice and assess your own childs abilities. So many people "overestimate" their children's abilities, like "oh my Johnny he's so smart and responsible" meanwhile he's having a beer party with Susie behind the house and the parents would NEVER know... (I was a bad little apple when I was a little guy) and my parents thought/THINK I'm a little angel..

Think Twice if not three times about what you are doing

and heck I'm 24 going on 18.... I got this whole teen thing backwards... It's funny (help me out here old guys/gals) the older I get the more I realize that I don't know... by the time I'm 40 I'll probably realize I don't know anything at all... well other than the 5 years of computer science and physics classes that I've taken

 

[Butch103]

Hockey for sure. Like all sports,proper training and supervision makes all the difference in the world. I know up here in Ontario the minor hockey went to no body contact until age 10-11. When I started contact began at day one. The change was made to protect the players as Wheezy mentioned they are going thru body changes and growth spurts. But we cannot insulate them. I know of a very tough young man who severely broke his ankle playing baseball. Again " Like all sports,proper training and supervision makes all the difference in the world."

Butch

 

[Mario S Caner]

So what's to stop an instructor who's brand new... been diving for 6 months, just barely passed the triple digit dive mark and is now armed with a PADI Instructor C-Card doing a crossover to NAUI, SSI, SDI or whatever other agency he/she chooses? Nothing. Loop hole? You betcha! Don't get me wrong, I don't beleive that a person who has been diving for 6 months with 100 dives under their (weight)belt teaching. They sure as heck wouldn't be teaching my friends/family! But it is what it is.

 

[jbd]

I think for diving for youngsters to be safe the maturity thing needs to be carefully evaluated along with the shop and instructor involved. My OW course was a total of 5 evenings long. My daughters course was 8 afternoons 4 days each of a 2 week period. I was there to watch her pool sessions and "eavesdrop" on her class participation due to a little parental trick she never saw coming. I offered her a discover scuba course after I had checked out the facility etc. Once she took the discover scuba I put off signing her up until we had a few days for her to think about it(sometimes interest dies pretty quickly). Then I asked her if she wanted to sign up for the scuba camp. She said yes without hesitation. During her pool sessions I was able "read" her face and eyes. I could tell she liked it although she had some of the normal fears to overcome. Others in the class I have some doubts about personally but its not my call--however I have heard that some children aren't allowed to do the certification dives for maturity issues etc. All in all its a complex issue that takes a lot of adult partcipation. In the end we as the diving community may find that this doesn't work and the age limits will go back up.

 

[Ontario Diver]

jdb - I think you have the right attitude. We'd love to dive with the two of you one day.

wheezy - I don't know about you, but I was amazed at how much my parents learned from when I was 18 until I was 26. Boy, they used to be so out of it. I promise that the decision for my son to dive will be shared amongst his instructor (who knows his stuff), me, and him. I will revisit that decision at the beginning of every dive as to his (and mine!) maturity and mind set.

Cause I started playing hockey at 6. Like butch said full contact from day 1 - got carried off the ice enough.

But let's all remember. You can get badly hurt in Hockey, or Bowling - in diving you can get dead.

 

[hphobbie@aol.com]

The standards changed in 1986. Up until then we certified whoever could handle the tanks and the knowledge. I taught at a summer camp for 10-12 YO's. No problem at all then. More than once I have seen a kid teach Mom and/or Dad how to use the tables.

Next, PADI does not REQUIRE you to teach kids. Some people should not. Next, they have to pass the same exams and same skills an adult does.(BTW, I am one that won't teach younger kids if I can help it)

Third, what does NAUI and the Y require of an instructor? How is that different from PADI? In the past I have seen people become Y instructors within 10 months of certification as well as PADI. What do they require that is so much different?

For teaching, it still comes down to the instructor. Interview them before you let your kid in their. You owe it to both. I taught both mine with my partner, at that time they had to be 12. They were better divers at 12 than they are as teenagers. There are only a few people I let them dive with except me. I am still responsible for them and only the best will do.

Many people learned to dive in 60's and 70's at younger than 12 and still are diving. These include some of today's luminaries.

One last item. Please remember this is the internet. To say many 10 year olds have gotten hurt in training, it is believed as gospel by some. If it is true, the info needs to be disseminated. If not, it needs to be retracted. Businesses and reputations have been ruined by comments on message boards on the internet by people with unsubstantiated comments.

 

[Zagnut]

.. that these kids will not have to rely soley on their instructor for their training. Even if these kids end up with a mediocre instructor that is fresh out of instructor school, they will have their parents, who are accomplished divers themselves, and who understand the seriousness of the situation, to fill in any gaps(should there be any) in their training. I would be willing to bet that these kids will be lectured and quizzed more by their parents, who have a special interest in their kid's training, than any instructor from any agency would ever lecture or quiz anyone. These parents have set reasonable limits on their kids diving, and will be right there during those dives.

As far as them being ready or not, it is more a matter of maturity than is it a matter of age. My wife(actually all the kids in her family) were very mature and focused when they were kids. When she was in junior high and high school, she actually used to stay home on Friday nights to study for her SATs and her college entrance exams. As a result, she started college when she was sixteen and was still in high school. She got three degrees inluding her Master's Degree and graduated Magna Cum Laude. She was a pretty mature and focused kid. I played in rock bands and partied on Friday nights. I got a bunch of fond memories(I eventually finished college)...I was not quite so focused as she. I used to love to have "beer parties with Susie behind the house" like you mentioned, but I never did it when my father was just an arms length away like these parents will be when their kid is diving.

I have a cousin that started racing motorcycles when he was eight years old. He is married now and has children of his own and still races motorcycles. He wasn't taught by a mediocre instructor. He was taught by his father(who literally has hundreds of trophies of his own), who made sure his son was properly trained and capable to race. There are risks in every sport. Hell, you put your child at risk when you put them in the car to drive them to their baseball game. I would bet that these scubaboarders will make sure that their kids get the most thorough training possible and are completely capable, or they will keep the kids from diving.

 

[wheezy]

Well obviously there are always exceptions. Child prodigy's can excel at anything and exceed most lifetime professionals by the time they are teenagers. THIS IS NOT THE CASE in hand. It's like driving, even if you have an extremely gifted child (who is in college at say 15 majoring in quantum physics) They still can not drive.

Also: as for their parents being right there and whoever else right there... does not guarantee that the child will make it through the dive alive. Living in So Cal I've seen conditions change quite quickly where even experienced adults needed help. I just would NOT allow my children to participate in SCUBA before they were physically fit to really dive. Let's face it on the training thing that just about any schmoe can get certified down at sport chalet.

Sorry, I will not knowingly risk my child's life.

Head Like A Rock baby

Furthermore: I doubt that what I say is going to put sport chalet out of business. Like I said I have NO first hand experience with any children's deaths. HOWEVER, my most trusted source of scuba information has informed that it IS the case. I will ask him for more information.