Question regarding neutral buoyancy

[inquis]

it should be difficult, requiring a full exhale to initiate your descent.

I don't find it difficult at all to initiate descent at the beginning of the dive. After all, I'm carrying 5 pounds (of air) that I won't have at the end of the dive.

 

[TMHeimer]

I don't find it difficult at all to initiate descent at the beginning of the dive. After all, I'm carrying 5 pounds (of air) that I won't have at the end of the dive.

I find it, well, not difficult, but I have to wiggle around to get all the air out of the BC and exhale completely, since I'm diving with a 7 mil farmer john wetsuit which may be bone dry upon entry. And I use 42 pounds of lead.

 

[TMHeimer]

I know you are being serious with your statement, but I did actually laugh as you brought back the memories of the worst open water class I taught. It was a class of 9, and I had another instructor assist. He said "I've been "teaching for decades." He told this to the students, not me. And he's the reason why it was the worst class I taught. Why? I was trying to teach the course neutral buoyancy and trim. I was giving students, him, and a DM all instructions to practice hovering while they waited their turn. As he was an instructor, I broke up the class in half as we had 6 hours of pool time.

And what did I see each time I turned around and looked to see how that half of the class was doing? They were either floating on the surface or sitting on the bottom. So I would signal them to hover. And as I found out later, he would tell them to sit on the bottom, not hover, or just float at the surface, as he "had been teaching for decades" and I had not.

So these dinosaurs need to do incoming students a favor. That favor is to stop teaching. They hardly ever add to their toolbox. They cling to past inferior methods. If instructors don't dramatically improve their teaching methods over time, they are worthless. Diving isn't rocket science which leads me to your next comment.



So, one of my OW/AOW students went on to take fundies and T1. He earned his T1 certification after 2 years, and 230 dives. Not a long time, not a lot of dives, is that? The time/dive count doesn't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is skills in the water. People get waaaaaaay too hung up on dive count. My former student will dive circles around most divers with THOUSANDS of dives. Give me a break.



Are we buying it? Or are the standards so pathetically low in terms of skills set required? Maybe we are being suckered a bit too?



Mastery requires a proper foundation. Give that foundation and the trajectory for mastery is much, much shorter.

I'm lower on the totem pole than you, yet (in fun) busting your chops---- You didn't advise the dinosaur you were going to teach the course neutrally buoyant?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You didn't advise the dinosaur you were going to teach the course neutrally buoyant?

I think you have learned enough of my personality from scubaboard to acknowledge that it was best that I didn't speak to him.

 

[TMHeimer]

I think you have learned enough of my personality from scubaboard to acknowledge that it was best that I didn't speak to him.

I hear ya. Sometimes best to hold your tongue.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I hear ya. Sometimes best to hold your tongue.

Especially (and I didn't say this earlier) that I had given out a detailed word document describing how the class was to be run. He just disregarded it and did what he wanted. Had I known he was going to do this, I'd say thanks but no thanks. I'll just work with the DM only.

 

[hsinhai]

Everyone's physiology is different, so focus on what works for you. There are general rules, but you should tailor to yourself. First of all you need to be relaxed, try to determine what feels right for you as a natural rest state as far as when not breathing in or out, and correct your buoyancy in this state.

Lungs have a tidal volume (your natural amount of air breathing in and out at rest) which is normally only ~20% of your actual total lung capacity. If you try to correct your buoyancy at the wrong area of your breath you will always feel your lungs too full or too empty to feel comfortable.

Once you have things right, you will only rise and fall a little with each breath, but will remain at the same level with each cycle. You can then breath shallow in a lower portion of your lungs to drop and deeper to rise. I never add air in my BCD from the decent until i'm on the surface.. though using a 3mm wetsuit in warm waters..

Big breaths and your not going to be able to be able to stabilize yourself anyway. Myself, i personally think i have big lungs.. haha or at least I feel comfortable with more air in my lungs.. so i set my buoyancy to match that... whether I have 1kg more or less than someone else really does not matter.

 

[hsinhai]

I find it, well, not difficult, but I have to wiggle around to get all the air out of the BC and exhale completely, since I'm diving with a 7 mil farmer john wetsuit which may be bone dry upon entry. And I use 42 pounds of lead.

What I find helps me is a combination of emptying BCD, breathing out and immediately kicking up raising shoulders out of the water a little which creates a lager differential/negative buoyancy/inertia (?) all at once allowing me to easily break the surface, once below the surface negative buoyancy takes over..

 

[TMHeimer]

What I find helps me is a combination of emptying BCD, breathing out and immediately kicking up raising shoulders out of the water a little which creates a lager differential/negative buoyancy/inertia (?) all at once allowing me to easily break the surface, once below the surface negative buoyancy takes over..

I suppose I do some version of that.

 

[scubaozy]

I know you are being serious with your statement, but I did actually laugh as you brought back the memories of the worst open water class I taught. It was a class of 9, and I had another instructor assist. He said "I've been "teaching for decades." He told this to the students, not me. And he's the reason why it was the worst class I taught. Why? I was trying to teach the course neutral buoyancy and trim. I was giving students, him, and a DM all instructions to practice hovering while they waited their turn. As he was an instructor, I broke up the class in half as we had 6 hours of pool time.

And what did I see each time I turned around and looked to see how that half of the class was doing? They were either floating on the surface or sitting on the bottom. So I would signal them to hover. And as I found out later, he would tell them to sit on the bottom, not hover, or just float at the surface, as he "had been teaching for decades" and I had not.

So these dinosaurs need to do incoming students a favor. That favor is to stop teaching. They hardly ever add to their toolbox. They cling to past inferior methods. If instructors don't dramatically improve their teaching methods over time, they are worthless. Diving isn't rocket science which leads me to your next comment.

You seem to have failed to communicate all together, you should have discussed how you want to conduct the course, you are both your selves to blame.
People who are ageing will eventually struggle to catch up might end up becoming “dinosaurs”. Lacking empathy to this is a personality disorder imho.

So, one of my OW/AOW students went on to take fundies and T1. He earned his T1 certification after 2 years, and 230 dives. Not a long time, not a lot of dives, is that? The time/dive count doesn't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is skills in the water. People get waaaaaaay too hung up on dive count. My former student will dive circles around most divers with THOUSANDS of dives. Give me a break.

Chest-thumping.. Seriously, how old are you? Lol
Number of dives are rough estimation of how many different situations you have dealt. Teaching in a cold Finnish lake with silt bottom in low vis or in Maldives with ripping currents require different skillset. I recommend that you get out from your little pond and swim in the ocean a little to get more experience. I must also add that chest-thumping instructors are not very successful in the business, team teaching requires that everyone “agrees” on how teaching will be done. People with fixed ideas usually let go as no one wants to work with them.

Are we buying it? Or are the standards so pathetically low in terms of skills set required? Maybe we are being suckered a bit too?

I think you are speaking for your self. Diving is not a competitive sport as a result often subject to a lot of chest-thumping probably due testosterone. Hormone it self is not a problem but in certain male subjects it triggers status seeking. Lack of self esteem, insecurity will also lead to behaviour such as “seeking to get higher in the ladder”.

Mastery requires a proper foundation. Give that foundation and the trajectory for mastery is much, much shorter.

I guess if you are able to write these messages, you have been to some kind of school. How many of your school friends ended up in the university? Didn’t you all get same instruction? You are just a beginner, hopefully as you gain experience, you will realise that when your students performs great, it is not only due to you, but due their ability to learn and sum of their actions/experiences with water in the past. Please grow up and stop with this instructor with magic wand attitude. Huge number of instructors were already teaching in NB before you even got your OWD ticket.
When teaching motor skills (diving, as well as playing an instrument), sometimes you need to break the skill down to smallest atomic sub-skill and master them individually, because student cannot get the whole skill right. As an instructor, it is your job to identify what that failing subskill is. Your students’ needs must dictate how you teach, not, a belief or a conviction of how a teaching must be.