Question regarding neutral buoyancy

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So, one of my OW/AOW students went on to take fundies and T1. He earned his T1 certification after 2 years, and 230 dives. Not a long time, not a lot of dives, is that? The time/dive count doesn't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is skills in the water. People get waaaaaaay too hung up on dive count. My former student will dive circles around most divers with THOUSANDS of dives. Give me a break.

I have to disagree about that with you :)

I have 198 dives on my logbook, and I am T1 and C1. In terms of trim and buoyancy control, I overperform most people with many more dives than me under their belt.

However...

How many difficult situations did I have to deal with? Less than ten probably; and every time that a new problem raises underwater, I have to admit that it's a bit stressing for me. For instance, 2 weeks ago I was diving a wreck in an Alpin lake in France. 40m (130ft) deep, 25minutes of bottom time + deco. When I completed the descent, my inflator got icy and started filling my wing with lots of air. Sure, I disconnected it, tried to fix it and continued the dive; did not lose my buddy, did not lose much time. But it was a stressful situation, simply because I do not have much experience.

A person with many more dives than me, even if has a slightly worse control of trim (buoyancy is usually good after 1000 dives, although not always), would be way more relaxed than me in a similar situation most likely.

So, in a way or another, I believe that experience still has a lot of importance, probably more than "perfect" skills.

There are also extreme cases of people with 1000 dives who are unable to do a safe ascent, but in my experience - they are the exception, not the rule
 
I have to disagree about that with you :)

I have 198 dives on my logbook, and I am T1 and C1. In terms of trim and buoyancy control, I overperform most people with many more dives than me under their belt.

However...

How many difficult situations did I have to deal with? Less than ten probably; and every time that a new problem raises underwater, I have to admit that it's a bit stressing for me. For instance, 2 weeks ago I was diving a wreck in an Alpin lake in France. 40m (130ft) deep, 25minutes of bottom time + deco. When I completed the descent, my inflator got icy and started filling my wing with lots of air. Sure, I disconnected it, tried to fix it and continued the dive; did not lose my buddy, did not lose much time. But it was a stressful situation, simply because I do not have much experience.

A person with many more dives than me, even if has a slightly worse control of trim (buoyancy is usually good after 1000 dives, although not always), would be way more relaxed than me in a similar situation most likely.

So, in a way or another, I believe that experience still has a lot of importance, probably more than "perfect" skills.

There are also extreme cases of people with 1000 dives who are unable to do a safe ascent, but in my experience - they are the exception, not the rule

With all due respect, you are an example of the point @wetb4igetinthewater was making.
In less than 200 dives, you have completed training that many divers will NEVER be skilled enough to pass.
Zero to hero is a derogatory term for those who can learn and perform at a higher level than most. When those people apply themselves to learning a newfound passion, they frequently excel in short order and often to a very advanced level.
Your modesty should keep you safe.
Uncharted territory comes with new risks.

Happy trails!
 
You seem to have failed to communicate all together, you should have discussed how you want to conduct the course, you are both your selves to blame.
People who are ageing will eventually struggle to catch up might end up becoming “dinosaurs”. Lacking empathy to this is a personality disorder imho.

Okay, I'm not going to sink to your level childish insults, but you are missing some key points. Maybe you can suggest how I should have communicated differently in that I provided a detailed one pager to the other instructor as well as verbally briefing just before we got into the pool?

Should I have made him take a quiz to ensure he understood? We both are native English speakers.

Chest-thumping.. Seriously, how old are you? Lol
50 if you must know.

Number of dives are rough estimation of how many different situations you have dealt. Teaching in a cold Finnish lake with silt bottom in low vis or in Maldives with ripping currents require different skillset. I recommend that you get out from your little pond and swim in the ocean a little to get more experience. I must also add that chest-thumping instructors are not very successful in the business, team teaching requires that everyone “agrees” on how teaching will be done. People with fixed ideas usually let go as no one wants to work with them.
You should come to my "little pond" (oh how i'm laughing at you now). The Puget Sound is dark, cold, and often has ripping currents in many locations. We don't get surprises as I've heard about in say Florida. But up currents, down currents are quite common in places like Deception Pass. If you are ever in Seattle, please come dive with me in Deception Pass. We'll do it when it is a bit more challenging (as it is a lot of fun). But if you get in trouble, you're on your own.

I think you are speaking for your self. Diving is not a competitive sport as a result often subject to a lot of chest-thumping probably due testosterone. Hormone it self is not a problem but in certain male subjects it triggers status seeking. Lack of self esteem, insecurity will also lead to behaviour such as “seeking to get higher in the ladder”.
You must be projecting here. It had to do with long term goals. I met the "minimum requirement", so I figured that was "good enough." I mean after all, shouldn't the minimum requirements mean I was qualified to make the next steps?

Don't answer that.


I guess if you are able to write these messages, you have been to some kind of school. How many of your school friends ended up in the university? Didn’t you all get same instruction? You are just a beginner, hopefully as you gain experience, you will realise that when your students performs great, it is not only due to you, but due their ability to learn and sum of their actions/experiences with water in the past. Please grow up and stop with this instructor with magic wand attitude. Huge number of instructors were already teaching in NB before you even got your OWD ticket.
When teaching motor skills (diving, as well as playing an instrument), sometimes you need to break the skill down to smallest atomic sub-skill and master them individually, because student cannot get the whole skill right. As an instructor, it is your job to identify what that failing subskill is. Your students’ needs must dictate how you teach, not, a belief or a conviction of how a teaching must be.

When did I say I was taking credit for my student's success? I was the early part to set him on his trajectory. But all the work was him. The continued (and even better) training he received from his GUE instructors. I didn't saddle him with bad habits. He didn't finish his AOW with just 5 dives with me. He had to go practice, and he did that. And he understood the value of hard work.

As this is the basic scuba forum, let's take this to PM. I don't wish to discuss your self-esteem issues that you are projecting here.
 
I have to disagree about that with you :)

I have 198 dives on my logbook, and I am T1 and C1. In terms of trim and buoyancy control, I overperform most people with many more dives than me under their belt.

However...

How many difficult situations did I have to deal with? Less than ten probably; and every time that a new problem raises underwater, I have to admit that it's a bit stressing for me. For instance, 2 weeks ago I was diving a wreck in an Alpin lake in France. 40m (130ft) deep, 25minutes of bottom time + deco. When I completed the descent, my inflator got icy and started filling my wing with lots of air. Sure, I disconnected it, tried to fix it and continued the dive; did not lose my buddy, did not lose much time. But it was a stressful situation, simply because I do not have much experience.

A person with many more dives than me, even if has a slightly worse control of trim (buoyancy is usually good after 1000 dives, although not always), would be way more relaxed than me in a similar situation most likely.

So, in a way or another, I believe that experience still has a lot of importance, probably more than "perfect" skills.

There are also extreme cases of people with 1000 dives who are unable to do a safe ascent, but in my experience - they are the exception, not the rule

I'd agree with you, but I've seen during my dive trips people with thousands of dives get into trouble fairly easily as they didn't have good buoyancy control. Cold water diving adds more potential issues and more difficulties than floating in tropical water following a dive guide. So I don't think people with thousands of dives with bad buoyancy control are the exception. I don't think they are the rule either. None of us has a sufficient sample size to say what is the rule/exception for the millions of divers out there. We just have data. I just see bad divers more often than good divers when I travel.

People also respond to stress differently. Experience and training do go a long way. But I wouldn't say someone with your level of training (especially the C1) with around 200 dives is necessarily going to have more trouble than someone with 2000 dives.
 
I'd agree with you, but I've seen during my dive trips people with thousands of dives get into trouble fairly easily as they didn't have good buoyancy control. Cold water diving adds more potential issues and more difficulties than floating in tropical water following a dive guide. So I don't think people with thousands of dives with bad buoyancy control are the exception. I don't think they are the rule either. None of us has a sufficient sample size to say what is the rule/exception for the millions of divers out there. We just have data. I just see bad divers more often than good divers when I travel.

People also respond to stress differently. Experience and training do go a long way. But I wouldn't say someone with your level of training (especially the C1) with around 200 dives is necessarily going to have more trouble than someone with 2000 dives.
An interesting discussion between you and ginti. I think it is valid that having both good skills and experience is important. By skills I assume we are talking buoyancy, trim, finning, etc.-- I call that more "basic diving". How proficient should one be on the other "skills" taught in the pool? Like removing/replacing the unit, reg retrieval, CESA, belt removal/replace (inotherwords the stuff we all know but have done one of those things once if at all).

I hear what you say about those with thousands of dives that you see in the tropics without good buoyancy. This is amazing to me-- that they hadn't quit by now.....can't be much fun.
But, I've seen a small number of OW students when I've thought "why are you here, have you ever been in water?"
 
I hear what you say about those with thousands of dives that you see in the tropics without good buoyancy. This is amazing to me-- that they hadn't quit by now.....can't be much fun.

Well I think they get to look at some pretty fish in nice warm water. Sure their dives could be longer with proper skills, but they're still happy. Ultimately that is the most important thing (along with safety of course).
 
I'd agree with you, but I've seen during my dive trips people with thousands of dives get into trouble fairly easily as they didn't have good buoyancy control. Cold water diving adds more potential issues and more difficulties than floating in tropical water following a dive guide. So I don't think people with thousands of dives with bad buoyancy control are the exception. I don't think they are the rule either. None of us has a sufficient sample size to say what is the rule/exception for the millions of divers out there. We just have data. I just see bad divers more often than good divers when I travel.

People also respond to stress differently. Experience and training do go a long way. But I wouldn't say someone with your level of training (especially the C1) with around 200 dives is necessarily going to have more trouble than someone with 2000 dives.

My point was not whether or not I can manage the problem; with good training, as long as one dives within his limits, problems should be more or less always solvable.

What I wanted to say is that experience has actually a key role, and I would not put necessarily training before experience. Clear, there are exceptions. A full-cave hypoxic trimix diver with experience in several environments and 400 dives (wow, this guy went fast) would probably more reliable than an OW diver with 1300 dives always in the same spots. But, in my experience, the OW guy is probably not that bad.

Anyway, I have not met so many bad divers with 1000+ dives... If I had, I would think differently.
 
....
Happy trails!

You're too kind :)

I did not want to say that training is not important. My point is just that experience is a key factor too and, in most cases (that is, if one had at least a decent training), I believe it is the most important one.

thanks, and happy trails to you as well
 
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