Question about pony bottles

[scubadada]

Absolutely, and I would go further and say that if you are going to sling a pony, you should sling a 30 or a 40. I say this because despite what is commonly assumed, I find no difference in terms of trim, handling or or buoyancy between slinging a 19, a 30 or a 40 underwater (and I carry a huge DSLR rig with dual strobes, etc..). Yeah, if you are diving on a Caribbean reef at 20 feet a 30 is overkill, but we really aren't talking about CESA depths here.

In lots of these discussions about emergency procedures, people are very specific about their assumed proficiency and skills when calculating how much gas to bring, what sort of backup second stage to use, etc... I hear a lot of claims about how they have practiced and know that they need X amount of gas for this ascent, or will follow Y procedure to share air, etc. Sure, planning is good, but you should plan to completely fall apart and act like a total newbie in the event of a real emergency, and then make your backup plan as simple as possible with as much buffer as is reasonable.

In this situation, that means carrying enough gas in your redundant supply, so when it actually happens that you blow out an LP hose and your 3000 PSI in your aluminum is gone in 80 seconds, you should anticipate taking MUCH longer to figure out what to do, sucking MUCH more air while you get yourself oriented, and then being able to do a slow, safe ascent with a safety stop. You should also plan to have lost your buddy, since that is very easy to do. Every diver should be self reliant (solo certified or not) IMHO.

And as far as back mounting your pony, I have to say I don't understand the appeal of that at all. I guess it's personal preference, but it seems to me that you want your emergency gas right there where you can see the valve and the reg. Again, I'm sure that people who dive with that configuration are very confident in their ability to deploy their bungeed reg or the whole tank in an emergency, but the same point that I made above applies to this as well...

Size matters, sure it does. This topic has been beat to death on SB. There is conservative and then there is ultraconservative. Do your own calculations. For me, from 130 feet, no deco at twice my average SRMV, 1 min at depth, 30 ft/min ascent, 3 min safety stop, just over 17 cu ft of gas. Of course, why do I need a minute at depth with a catastrophic gas failure, I could ascend faster, I don't need the safety stop, that's less than 4 cu ft of gas if push really came to shove. I'm fine with my 19 cu ft pony and I actually travel with it. Do that easily with your 30 or 40 cu ft pony/stage bottle. To each their own.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2014 at 08:47 PM ----------

I intend to back mount the pony bottles, right hand side. The 2nd stage is yellow with yellow hose, very distinctive from the primary 2nd stage. It will be tucked into a right hand octo pocket, as that is the most secure attachment we have used. Its always there, never comes loose the way many of the other attachments we've tried do...dangling octo like I often see in people's videos. This way there is no difference in what me already know, exactly the same as our octo has always been.

We are buddy diving, not solo diving. I know anything is possible, but... There are two pony bottles, we're buddy diving. That's 38 cu ft, not 19, of reserve air. As previously noted, when we have dove with singles with and primary and octo on one tank, the best planning I've found was to calculate enough air for diver and buddy to make it to surface including a safety stop. By that calculation I get 35 cu ft reserve when we start heading up. If anything went wrong with one tank, we would have 35 cu ft, no more. With 2 pony bottles, if something goes wrong, we have 35 cu ft, and also 38 cu ft. That's 73 cu ft reserve, 38 cu ft more than we've been diving with. And if the very unlikely scenario of both of us OOA in our mains, its equivalent to what we've been diving with. I think 19's are adequate for our diving. But certainly there must be some scenario where a 149 cu ft pony would not be enough........

I've never had any plan made to hand off my main tank with octo off to another diver in the past, neither do I plan to hand off my pony to another diver. Just as we've been doing I would hand off my pony reg, gain our wits, grab arms and ascend

We're not technical divers. We don't push NDL limits. We are not required to do a safety stop in our diving, it is suggested and we always observe it, usually exceed it. But in an emergency its not required. I ALWAYS plan enough gas for a safety stop, and enough gas for 2 divers.

Dive equipment rarely fails. But it does fail. In the short time we've been diving I've seen 2 different divers blow out valve o rings. One on the surface, the other and around 40 ft.

I've already read through every pony bottle thread I could find on here and other forums/blogs. I've already read through all the arguements of slinging vs side mount, maintaining an octo in addition to pony. I've read through the "Spare Air" 3 cu ft toy bottles. We're not diving to 130 ft, we're not even diving to 100 ft. Some people dive with their hands clasp, some cross their arms. I hold my console computer with both hands, and look at it often. We have those loud pvc clackers, noise makers. We've drilled when you see something 1 or 2 knocks, when there's an emergency bang it non stop

Getting back to the initial post, there's nothing particularly wrong with your thought process. Get yourself a few hundred more dives in a variety of environments with alternate buddies (or lack thereof) and you will know much more about what you don't know. You can't just read about it, but that's not a bad start.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I sling my pony, it can't free flow without me seeing it, I can't confuse the 2nd stage with any other, the SPG on a short hose let's me know exactly what I have, I could always pass it off if I wanted to.

I have no doubt that yours is a safer configuration. I use a less safe configuration that I think is more convenient. The little video is a very clear example of one of the limitations of my prefered rig.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2014 at 07:54 PM ----------

You can never have too much gas? Maybe, but you CAN have too much hot air..

---------- Post added May 21st, 2014 at 08:09 PM ----------

By your "logic", you only need a little 63 cu ft tank and a Spare Air. That's all you'll "need", and it will get it to the surface (if you don't breath hard on it), right?

At some point, you draw a line and don't take 4 tanks, but you're saying to take less of the one critical supply that will keep you alive in the tanks you do take. It does not make sense.



Yes, if I'm going to be the only vehicle around, have a reasonable expectation that no one will come to save me in time if I do run out, and don't know the conditions or problems that may occur before I can arrive at the next station.

Have you ever driven remote areas in winter? That's essentially what you're doing when solo. If you run into a problem, you can't call for AAA, and no one will come by to get you for a very long time. If you don't have food, water, a heat source and/or enough gas, you are in serious trouble.

But you'd be advocating taking your convertible with the top down, and calculating that you can drive at peak efficiency to the next station. No worries about sliding off into the ditch and being stuck for a week and running out of fuel- you've got one of those dinky 1.5 gallon gas cans in the trunk. You'll be fine...

Your opinions seem rather unidimensional...MORE, MORE, MORE is ALWAYS better! I do not agree with that.

I dive with MORE gear than most people do. A video camera, 2 knives, a speargun, a pole spear, a lobster net, a lobster bag, several lift bags, a pony bottle, an Air 2, a marine radio, a light and a floatball and reel which is attached with a reef hook and sometimes a scooter, (and the usual stuff too). However, I have learned a long time ago that MORE is not universally better (or safer). Sometimes I might even carry a stage bottle too (for deco).

You've argued that it is a no-brainer to carry 3 typical second stages (I've said it is not optimal IF you are back mounting).

You've argued that more air volume in the primary tank is ALWAYS better, I say not always (especially for a 14 yr old).

You say you should practice using an emergency breathing device while breathing as fast (MORE)as you can, while I think practicing breathing slowly (LESS) might have some benefits as well.

You say you must have a relatively large pony bottle simply because it has MORE, while I say that I prefer to carry a pony bottle that has enough.

My personal choices are made after many dives and seeing many accidents and incidents. Each piece of gear must provide me a benefit that over-rides the drawbacks of bringing it. If you analyze each piece of gear from that standpoint, the simplistic logic of MORE-MORE-MORE may lose some appeal.

 

[scubadada]

You can never have too much gas? Maybe, but you CAN have too much hot air..

We agree!

 

[T.C.]

Are you sure about that?

Yes. Notice how I didn't say thing about bringing more tanks than the two (main and pony). The "4 or 6" was dumpster's distortion of what I said into a strawman argument.

The comment about "ask a Tanker" deals with the atrocious fuel consumption of my other ride.

Your opinions seem rather unidimensional.

And your opinions are just to be argumentative.

..MORE, MORE, MORE is ALWAYS better! I do not agree with that.

No, not at all what I said. I said more air is better than a bare minimum. I did not ever speak about "more gear", just more air. You are distorting what I said.

And if you don't agree with "more gear", look at what you have posted below. A bunch of gear that is useless in an emergency. This is a good example of "more, more, more", yet you claim you do not agree with this? You contradict yourself in the same post.

I dive with MORE gear than most people do. A video camera, 2 knives, a speargun, a pole spear, a lobster net, a lobster bag, several lift bags, a pony bottle, an Air 2, a marine radio, a light and a floatball and reel which is attached with a reef hook and sometimes a scooter, (and the usual stuff too). However, I have learned a long time ago that MORE is not universally better (or safer). Sometimes I might even carry a stage bottle too (for deco).

You carry all this extra gear, but only a few articles will really count in an emergency. Underwater, only one article will count, the pony bottle, and you advocate carrying in a "less-safe configuration, and carrying less of that so you can carry more gear. In essence, you've traded off critical gas supplies to carry everything and the kitchen sink on a dive. You have your priorities backward; safety comes first, then your additional gear.

And you want to try to chide me for a "more, more, more" philosophy?

My personal choices are made after many dives and seeing many accidents and incidents. Each piece of gear must provide me a benefit that over-rides the drawbacks of bringing it. If you analyze each piece of gear from that standpoint, the simplistic logic of MORE-MORE-MORE may lose some appeal.

And yet, with your personal choices, you are the one here talking about the accidents that you've had, endorsing unsafe diving procedures, taking about only taking the bare minimum gas, and how you use a less-safe configuration because it's "convenient".

Frankly, I wouldn't listen to anything you have to say. The advice that you've given can easily lead to a a tragedy.

You can never have too much gas? Maybe, but you CAN have too much hot air..

Indeed. Thank you for admitting your fault to the board.

 

[Akimbo]

T.C.

The intent was levity, not a personal attack. A serious comment would not have been followed by a winking icon.

 

[T.C.]

T.C.

The intend was levity, not a personal attack. A serious comment would not have been followed by a winking icon.

I know. And I didn't take it as such.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm bored with this, but my point seems to escape you TC. I do take alot of stuff, I take what I think I need. My point is that I have carefully considered these choices and can justify them (in my own mind). I am not a minimalist. Sometimes I also take a fish stringer or two and powerheads and bullets (sorry I forgot those).

You have made comments like "you can never have too much". Yes, you can have too much. I'll let you decide where the line is drawn between what to bring and what is too much. I don't see a self-contradiction in my comments.

 

[scagrotto]

Maybe the upside down regulator would be a good clue that the regulator is attached to the pony?

Silly question - you know that you can turn a reg around, right? If you've got a 2nd stage with the hose attached on the right and that hose comes from your left side you can just put a simple bend in the hose and it will be right side up. Those who carry a pony on their left (or use a left hand octo) know how easy it is. I'd think it would also be obvious to somebody who thinks buddy breathing is an essential skill and has all their hoses coming over the right shoulder. What's the routing of the hose and position of the reg when your buddy is breathing from it?

The corollary to being able to turn a reg around is that a reg with a hose coming from your right can also be upside down. That means that it's where the hose comes from that provides useful info, not the momentary orientation of the reg. It can't get any simpler than hose from the left = pony and hose from the right = primary or octo. IMHO, anybody who can't tell which reg is which based on the hose routing probably shouldn't be relying on whether or not the reg is upside down.

 

[T.C.]

I'm bored with this, but my point seems to escape you TC. I do take alot of stuff, I take what I think I need. My point is that I have carefully considered these choices and can justify them (in my own mind). I am not a minimalist. Sometimes I also take a fish stringer or two and powerheads and bullets (sorry I forgot those).
You have made comments like "you can never have too much". Yes, you can have too much. I'll let you decide where the line is drawn between what to bring and what is too much. I don't see a self-contradiction in my comments.

The problem is that you distort what I say and build a strawman argument. I said "you can't have too much AIR", but you twisted that into trying to mean gear. That is not what I said. I never once said anything about more gear, just more air. If you're going to solo dive, it makes more sense to bring more gas with you.

You do contradict yourself. You cry out and chastise me for a false "more, more, more" attitude, when you bring unnecessary and useless gear with you. Two spears? Lobster nets? Bags? And a video camera? But yet you say that less GAS is better? To sum up what you're saying:
More Gear=Good!
More Breathing Gas=Bad!

You have your priorities backward. Try reading what I say, and replying to that, instead of twisting it into a strawman for you to argue with.

 

[BugHunterNY]

Most of the divers I see in the Northeast (NY, NJ) dive with Pony's. Most of the divers I know prefer to be prepared, even if you have a regular dive buddy you can depend on. In this area, good vis is 15', so it's easy to get separated from a partner.

I prefer having redundant air (Nitrox in my case). If a regulator fails, a buddy's great, if he/she is there. If you can plan your OOA and equipment failures, your buddy's octopus is reliable. Otherwise, I prefer a redundant backup system.

I've never traveled by air with my Pony, but I'm a little less concerned on a vacation dive trip, where all the divers tend to stay together and there's a guide nearby. And, I take good care of my regulators with annual regular service, although sometimes I feel like I'm just throwing money away, I figure better safe than sorry.

I've never seen a diver with a primary & octopus on a single tank, plus a pony, but I've never dove in the UK like the previous poster. But there's certainly no harm in being over-prepared.

I'm a regular NY/NJ diver - and every single dive boat in the region requires every diver to have redundant air (either doubles, or a pony/sling bottle). In addition, if you have a primary tank, you MUST have a primary and backup second stage. It is somewhat cavalier to say you only need a primary 2nd stage on a single tank just because you have a 19cuft pony. That's not a lot of air.

Always prepare for the worst and have a contingency plan. Think what if, a, b, c...z. If your primary starts free flowing at 80 feet, you have only that 19cuft pony (no backup on primary first stage) - what if something happens, however unlikely. say a buddies gas supply is lost?

Make sure you know how to use the tanks, how to properly switch regulators, stow excess hoses and share from a single reg if needed. It's all about preparedness and redundancy.





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