Quality of Students

[mudguppy]

I do think an instructor can off set a not so good agency.
Valid point, tho.
I, for one, appreciated your input.
What a win-win situation when you have a great instructor with a great agency!
I would vote for more options to choose from now

 

[detroit diver]

mudguppy once bubbled...
I do think an instructor can off set a not so good agency.
Valid point, tho.
I, for one, appreciated your input.
What a win-win situation when you have a great instructor with a great agency!
I would vote for more options to choose from now

How many "dive mills" do we see out there that push zillions of students thru with minimal instruction-BECAUSE THEY CAN?? Check some of the other threads out that are discussing class over the internet with no instructor interaction-BECAUSE THEY CAN!! They CAN because their agency allows this.

Rant over-you hit a nerve!!

Very shortly there will be an agency what will be offering second to none instruction with some of the top instructors in the world. It probably wont be a $99.00 class-but you'll get what you pay for. And it won't be 3 weeks of lessons/pool, because it will take much longer to teach the students properly. They're just crossing the T's and dotting the I's and I guess we'll see it early next year.

Look for the GUE open water course coming to a city near you!

 

[Scuba]

Great points detroit diver,

Standards, (used to define some values at one time), if we dare call them that, are so low that anyone can qualify to "teach".

I do hope GUE is successful on a large scale. This would force the others to move their standards in the other direction - HIGHER.

 

[mudguppy]

detroit diver once bubbled...class over the internet with no instructor interaction-]

I was not aware one could do class over the internet! Scarey!

 

[detroit diver]

Scuba once bubbled...
Great points detroit diver,

Standards, (used to define some values at one time), if we dare call them that, are so low that anyone can qualify to "teach".

I do hope GUE is successful on a large scale. This would force the others to move their standards in the other direction - HIGHER.

I'm not sure that GUE open water will ever be on a "large" scale. Price may be one limiting factor. Instructor requirements will be another.

One other thing-you will not have a lifetime C-card. It will probably expire at some interval, and will require some sort of proficiency or proof of diving to become current. This will keep the guys like my brother-in-law that got certified in the '70's, hasnt' dove once since-from jumping right into the ocean and killing themselves.

 

[AquaTec]

well I am the single person to pick TRaining agency.

That is because it is the taining agencies responsability to set minimum standards.

If an instructor teaches to the minimum standards you can not blame him, that is a result of compatetions, and money.

for those who teach beyond then kudos to you, I will bet most are independent instructors.

It is sort of like building codes, the building code has been developed at a level where when a contractor builds to that code...being it the minimum...the product is still sound. of coures the builder can build beyond, but most do not.

back to diving, when a dive shop sets a price for his course he figures his cost, part of that cost is what he will have to pay his instructor, that is then determained by how long it will take the instructor to complete the course.
the short the course the cheaper it can be offered, and the quicker that student will be buying equipment.

compatetion tends to make one shop try to undercut the other, generaly courses are loss leaders knowing that if you get the student the purchases will follow...so with a loss leader you need to reduce you cost to a minimum.

There will alway be instructors who will teach to the mimimum standards...there is nothing wrong with that....what needs to happen is the minimumm standards nee to be elevated. rase the bar

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...



I'm not sure that GUE open water will ever be on a "large" scale. Price may be one limiting factor. Instructor requirements will be another.

One other thing-you will not have a lifetime C-card. It will probably expire at some interval, and will require some sort of proficiency or proof of diving to become current. This will keep the guys like my brother-in-law that got certified in the '70's, hasnt' dove once since-from jumping right into the ocean and killing themselves.

IMO, the instructor and agency have the task of providing initial training not making decisions for you for the rest of your life. It is imortant to keep skills and knowlege current but I don't think they should police that. Once I prove proficiency in a course who is to say what is required for me to maintain proficiency. If they trained me right wouldn't I know enough to work up to more difficult dives after a period of inactivity? Don't they feel they are teaching the right mindset? This is the most important part of the training.

Divers should be protected by the jugement we teach them not by the control we maintain over them IMO, of course.

I don't think I like any agency very much. For avery one thing an agency does right they have to go do a bunch of things wrong to make up for it.

 

[detroit diver]

Scuba has to be the only thing that requires licensing but doesn't require proof of proficiency on a set interval. Driving, flying, medicine- just to name a few. If we don't police ourselves, we will get policed by the Feds.

I think its a great idea. If you've taught the mindset to the students, then there should be no problem as they will know the standards and keep current if they want to continue. Maybe it would keep some of the clueless morons out of the water. Oh yeah, I forgot. That would reduce the numbers, and we just can't have that, can we??

BTW, what does your agency require in terms of staying current with your instructor rating? (not a troll-I really don't know this).

 

[DSJ]

The individual instructor is the link to the student, and that is the person who will have the greastest impact.

So I vote for the instructor.

But wait, who controls the instructor?

Some are dedicated and don't require watching. They will teach equally well no matter the agency. OHT, there are the diver mills. This is where the agency is responsible. They ensure that the mills turn out adequately trained divers. If they don't it is the agency that is at fault. They know the economic drivers. If they allow this behavior, they are at fault. See my post in the "Enemy" thread about an independant examination for cert.

So I also vote for the agency.

Hmm, a GUE OW? That would be worth taking for the instructive value even if I get my AOW before then. I'm looking forward to spending some time with the local GUE trained folks here in the Detroit area once the weather warms up again.

Oh, wait...

I also vote for the student. This person is also responsible for their training. The students attitude and dedication is extremely important. Even Mike couldn't do anything with a student who doesn't listen.

David

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...

BTW, what does your agency require in terms of staying current with your instructor rating? (not a troll-I really don't know this).

First off I am not at all against some type of periodic testing/recertification for instructors. On the contrary I believe we need it. The problem there is do we currently have a valid test? If we did maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Certification at the diver level though is not a license. The effects of a divers actions on others is very limited (like any other activity). That isn't true for doctors, lawyers or commercial pilots.


To answer your question, for some ratings I am required to teach a minimum number of classes per year or go through a recertification process. Hey that's like what pilots do, they have to have so many hours in certain environments or do a check ride with an instructor to become current. For others I am only required to pay the anual membership fee and show proof of insurance. Of course the above assumes there have bee no QA actions and you are in good standing with the agency.