Pushing the limits? Is it a good idea?

[urbaneve71]

I am not a rock climber, but many of my friends are quite serious about rock climbing, and I learned from them that rock climbers have a number of rating systems that warn potential climbers of the degree of difficulty of a planned climb. I am a skier, and I know the universal system found on ski maps to warn skiers of the varying degrees of difficulty of the different slopes. I play golf, and before playing a new course, I check the slope rating on the score card to choose the tee boxes most appropriate to my ability. I used to be a serious volleyball player, and I used the standard rating system to chose the level of competition in which I would complete prior to entering a tournament.

Thinking about all of those rating systems made me wonder why we don't have such a system for diving overhead environments, and I set out to make one. I did not want to to do it by myself, figuring that it would be better if it came from a joint effort of a number of people with a lot of credibility. I myself am not among the elite of either cave diving or wreck diving, so I would definitely need help differentiating those top level dives. That was the original idea I pitched, but it did not get a lot of love. It drew mostly responses like, "Nice idea, but I'm too busy." It also drew some hostility, the reasoning for which I never understood.

When I eventually created the class, I made a scale similar to a ski map. I made no attempt to differentiate cave dives--I left that as a blanket "don't go into a cave without appropriate certification." Of course, that scale has no universality and will only be known to those who take the class. I still see a value to having a universal ranking system for overheads (and perhaps diving in general), but I don't see it happening soon.

i ski also - so i understand what you mean. and i agree there should be a universal rating system set in place (same should go for wreck dives as well - if you ask me) - i for one have not done OE dives and would never ever choose do one with without proper training, i trust no one expect me, but that is who i am. i find it unbelievable that some would choose to dive OEs without training. that is asking to get into a trick bag.

what else gets me is that you drew some hostility over your idea...

my instructor always taught me that no matter the dive or how simple the dive is, safety must always come first

 

[Reku]

Intro:

So I've been thinking about a way to answer this question for a few days now. As others have said "pushing the limits" is kind of a blanket term with no real value at all. I think that if a dive team (diver 1 + diver 2) had done the dive before and had a clearly laid out plan of execution for the dive. As long as "pushing the limits" does not change the nature of the dive - I would say that "pushing the limits" on a subsequent dive would be acceptable - if prepared for correctly.

Part 1: Now if we take into account the nature of a planned dive:

1. target depth
2. time at target depth (this one can change to be less but not more during the dive)
3. Openwater or overhead environment? (chains and under training platforms don't count.)
4. Decompression: Yes? No?
5. Time to surface

You should not change any of these while the dive is underway - unless you want to end it early. If you suddenly get the urge to go past NDL on a non-decompression dive - don't. If you have to change your plan mid water because you want to do something else you should surface with your buddy and plan a new dive.

Part 2: In terms of "pushing limits" as a diver and not on a per dive basis:

It's OK to push your limits as a diver as long as you understand that it's not a game. Transitioning from one form of diving to another is a serious matter. Treating this as a game is what gets you killed.

1. Why are you "pushing your limits"? (Bored? Want to see something new? Peer Pressure? Following your buddy?)
2. In order to get to the next limit you are satisfied with - what do you have to do? (how much skills, how much gear, how much experience)
3. What are the possible outcomes of pushing this limit? (if you fail will you die? if you succeed will this be enough?)

Research is important. Being prepared is the difference between living and dying. Every push should be researched and reviewed to see if it is even worth it on personal level.

Part 3: To all of you unprepared irresponsible divers that don't do the necessary research:

When you die. Your death doesn't just affect your family and your friends. It affects all of us tec divers and rec divers alike. Governments/Entities impose restrictions on us out of fear. One day a site can be safe to dive and the next? It's too dangerous didn't you hear about XXXXX drowning? We are going to have to close this down. Your unsafe actions have real world consequences that touch every diver one way or another. Get prepared, Be responsible. You signed an agreement of some kind when you learned to dive - honor it.

Part 4: And now! A Story brought to you by Reku!

I used to be an openwater diver pretending to be a tec diver like you! For 7 years I did deep dives, overhead dives, cave dives, sump, mud, wreck and all of the above solo at times. You name it I've done it. When I joined SB and started reading threads about inexperienced divers causing accidents and dying etc. It dawned on me that I've been being selfish this entire time. I didn't really care about the other divers but I should have - because if I were to die while being non-certified for the types of dives I was doing - it would affect other people in some way.

Over the past 6 months I've gotten 10+ certifications from various agencies. Not because I need them but because it's the responsible thing to do. In the event of my death nobody can say I wasn't prepared or I didn't do the research.

Conclusion: wow who the heck does this guy think he is telling us all this crap and typing a super long answer...man screw this guy.

On a personal note about "pushing limits" I push my limit on every dive possible. It's why I dive - I want to see how far I can go. It's not enough to just be a tec diver for me. I want more. I am prepared. I have done the research. I have the gear. I have the experience. Come at me water!

So go ahead "push your limits" but make sure you are prepared to face the consequences of your actions. Get prepared, Do the research. Hopefully you don't do anything stupid that ruins it for the rest of us. I'm counting on you to not screw this up.

 

[urbaneve71]

Excellent post Reku. I agree, push your limits - within an acceptable range - I see "pushing limits" in part as a way for divers to increase knowledge. Now before everyone jumps my arse for saying that. Please let me clarify. I by no means what-so-ever mean for a OW diver with 26 dives to go and jump into the smallest and darkest OE they can find.

What I do mean is that is some cases, in a safe environment, test out some new skills that you have learned. We learn by asking questions and doing new things and for us divers that means under supervision for new skills (such as a diver trying wreck diving for the first time).

Now, I do most of my dives as OW solo dives, but I do my research of my dives first. I would never ever go to a dive site and not check tides and such. You see where I am going. Basic stuff we are all taught. Same goes with more advanced dives. As Reku stated.

So go ahead "push your limits" but make sure you are prepared to face the consequences of your actions. Get prepared, Do the research. Hopefully you don't do anything stupid that ruins it for the rest of us. I'm counting on you to not screw this up

I do not have all the technical dives that most of you have here on the board, so maybe I am out of my range here, but this is the opinion from the other end of the spectrum -- of someone who is learning. This is information that I will carry with me on to my specialty classes when I take them

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Intro:

So I've been thinking about a way to answer this question for a few days now. As others have said "pushing the limits" is kind of a blanket term with no real value at all. I think that if a dive team (diver 1 + diver 2) had done the dive before and had a clearly laid out plan of execution for the dive. As long as "pushing the limits" does not change the nature of the dive - I would say that "pushing the limits" on a subsequent dive would be acceptable - if prepared for correctly.

Part 1: Now if we take into account the nature of a planned dive:

1. target depth
2. time at target depth (this one can change to be less but not more during the dive)
3. Openwater or overhead environment? (chains and under training platforms don't count.)
4. Decompression: Yes? No?
5. Time to surface

You should not change any of these while the dive is underway - unless you want to end it early. If you suddenly get the urge to go past NDL on a non-decompression dive - don't. If you have to change your plan mid water because you want to do something else you should surface with your buddy and plan a new dive.

Part 2: In terms of "pushing limits" as a diver and not on a per dive basis:

It's OK to push your limits as a diver as long as you understand that it's not a game. Transitioning from one form of diving to another is a serious matter. Treating this as a game is what gets you killed.

1. Why are you "pushing your limits"? (Bored? Want to see something new? Peer Pressure? Following your buddy?)
2. In order to get to the next limit you are satisfied with - what do you have to do? (how much skills, how much gear, how much experience)
3. What are the possible outcomes of pushing this limit? (if you fail will you die? if you succeed will this be enough?)

Research is important. Being prepared is the difference between living and dying. Every push should be researched and reviewed to see if it is even worth it on personal level.

Part 3: To all of you unprepared irresponsible divers that don't do the necessary research:

When you die. Your death doesn't just affect your family and your friends. It affects all of us tec divers and rec divers alike. Governments/Entities impose restrictions on us out of fear. One day a site can be safe to dive and the next? It's too dangerous didn't you hear about XXXXX drowning? We are going to have to close this down. Your unsafe actions have real world consequences that touch every diver one way or another. Get prepared, Be responsible. You signed an agreement of some kind when you learned to dive - honor it.

Part 4: And now! A Story brought to you by Reku!

I used to be an openwater diver pretending to be a tec diver like you! For 7 years I did deep dives, overhead dives, cave dives, sump, mud, wreck and all of the above solo at times. You name it I've done it. When I joined SB and started reading threads about inexperienced divers causing accidents and dying etc. It dawned on me that I've been being selfish this entire time. I didn't really care about the other divers but I should have - because if I were to die while being non-certified for the types of dives I was doing - it would affect other people in some way.

Over the past 6 months I've gotten 10+ certifications from various agencies. Not because I need them but because it's the responsible thing to do. In the event of my death nobody can say I wasn't prepared or I didn't do the research.

Conclusion: wow who the heck does this guy think he is telling us all this crap and typing a super long answer...man screw this guy.

On a personal note about "pushing limits" I push my limit on every dive possible. It's why I dive - I want to see how far I can go. It's not enough to just be a tec diver for me. I want more. I am prepared. I have done the research. I have the gear. I have the experience. Come at me water!

So go ahead "push your limits" but make sure you are prepared to face the consequences of your actions. Get prepared, Do the research. Hopefully you don't do anything stupid that ruins it for the rest of us. I'm counting on you to not screw this up.

While I "liked" your post and think it's one of the better ones in this thread, I'm just going to point out that training and certifications aren't always the answer either. There's simply no substitute for experience, calm demeanor, and attitude ... and none of those are gained through a class. I do a lot of solo diving ... I've mentored people in solo diving ... but I've never taken a class on the topic. By the time SDI offered their solo class, which was the first one offered by a recreational agency, I got a copy of the book from a friend, read it, and realized that my knowledge and experience already exceeded everything in there. So why take the class? Same goes for drysuit ... I've taught plenty of drysuit classes, issued plenty of cards to students who took them ... but have never taken a class or owned a c-card for drysuit diving. I have, however, more than 3000 dives in a drysuit and have worn out a few over the years. Cards don't really mean a lot ... I have a drawer full of them that have never been used for any dive or purpose whatsoever. They're an indication that you've been exposed to some curriculum that, at some level, has shown you how to learn a skill. The learning, however, comes from repeated application. One doesn't "learn" to play piano (as an example) by taking a class ... one learns by spending hours at the keyboard, learning how to make your hands press the keys with the timing and dynamic pressure that produces the desired sounds. That's how one learns any skill. That's how one "pushes their limits" ... and the prudent person does so in a measured manner that helps you gain not just the mechanics, but the fundamental understanding of why you apply a given skill under a given circumstance in order to achieve a desired result. That's learning.

A class mostly just teaches you how to learn ... there are other ways to do that. Depending on circumstances and how you learn best, some will produce better results than others ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Neilwood]

While I "liked" your post and think it's one of the better ones in this thread, I'm just going to point out that training and certifications aren't always the answer either. There's simply no substitute for experience, calm demeanor, and attitude ... and none of those are gained through a class. I do a lot of solo diving ... I've mentored people in solo diving ... but I've never taken a class on the topic. By the time SDI offered their solo class, which was the first one offered by a recreational agency, I got a copy of the book from a friend, read it, and realized that my knowledge and experience already exceeded everything in there. So why take the class? Same goes for drysuit ... I've taught plenty of drysuit classes, issued plenty of cards to students who took them ... but have never taken a class or owned a c-card for drysuit diving. I have, however, more than 3000 dives in a drysuit and have worn out a few over the years. Cards don't really mean a lot ... I have a drawer full of them that have never been used for any dive or purpose whatsoever. They're an indication that you've been exposed to some curriculum that, at some level, has shown you how to learn a skill. The learning, however, comes from repeated application. One doesn't "learn" to play piano (as an example) by taking a class ... one learns by spending hours at the keyboard, learning how to make your hands press the keys with the timing and dynamic pressure that produces the desired sounds. That's how one learns any skill. That's how one "pushes their limits" ... and the prudent person does so in a measured manner that helps you gain not just the mechanics, but the fundamental understanding of why you apply a given skill under a given circumstance in order to achieve a desired result. That's learning.

A class mostly just teaches you how to learn ... there are other ways to do that. Depending on circumstances and how you learn best, some will produce better results than others ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As you say, doing a course is not the only way to become skilled. The original cave divers did not have a course to do before they embarked on the likes of WKPP, they learned as they went along by expanding on their knowledge bit by bit and asking for expert assistance where possible. Some of that knowledge though was paid for in blood so it would be idiotic to not learn from their mistakes.

The difference I think is in attitude - the willingness to do the graft (learning the skills, doing the research etc) and to understand the reasoning behind an action instead of "just do this if that happens".

 

[Reku]

While I "liked" your post and think it's one of the better ones in this thread, I'm just going to point out that training and certifications aren't always the answer either. There's simply no substitute for experience, calm demeanor, and attitude ... and none of those are gained through a class. I do a lot of solo diving ... I've mentored people in solo diving ... but I've never taken a class on the topic. By the time SDI offered their solo class, which was the first one offered by a recreational agency, I got a copy of the book from a friend, read it, and realized that my knowledge and experience already exceeded everything in there. So why take the class? Same goes for drysuit ... I've taught plenty of drysuit classes, issued plenty of cards to students who took them ... but have never taken a class or owned a c-card for drysuit diving. I have, however, more than 3000 dives in a drysuit and have worn out a few over the years. Cards don't really mean a lot ... I have a drawer full of them that have never been used for any dive or purpose whatsoever. They're an indication that you've been exposed to some curriculum that, at some level, has shown you how to learn a skill. The learning, however, comes from repeated application. One doesn't "learn" to play piano (as an example) by taking a class ... one learns by spending hours at the keyboard, learning how to make your hands press the keys with the timing and dynamic pressure that produces the desired sounds. That's how one learns any skill. That's how one "pushes their limits" ... and the prudent person does so in a measured manner that helps you gain not just the mechanics, but the fundamental understanding of why you apply a given skill under a given circumstance in order to achieve a desired result. That's learning.

A class mostly just teaches you how to learn ... there are other ways to do that. Depending on circumstances and how you learn best, some will produce better results than others ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You're right! Certifications are but one way to do things. The only reason I even got mine was because if something happens to me some reporter can't say that I wasn't certified. The problem is that if you are uncertified in a particular diving and you are doing that diving and something happens - you will be made an example of by the media. non-certified divers getting hurt makes a more negative impact then a certified diver getting hurt. I try to mitigate that by being certified.

I learn by doing it by myself without help. That's the only way I can really "get" something. I got the certifications for others benefits and not my own.

Everyone learns in different ways.

 

[Neilwood]

You're right! Certifications are but one way to do things. The only reason I even got mine was because if something happens to me some reporter can't say that I wasn't certified. The problem is that if you are uncertified in a particular diving and you are doing that diving and something happens - you will be made an example of by the media. non-certified divers getting hurt makes a more negative impact then a certified diver getting hurt. I try to mitigate that by being certified.

I learn by doing it by myself without help. That's the only way I can really "get" something. I got the certifications for others benefits and not my own.

Everyone learns in different ways.

And good instructors and trainers realise that and tailor their direction to suit.

 

[Reku]

And good instructors and trainers realise that and tailor their direction to suit.

Yes! That's why when someone is looking to get a specific certification I would suggest that they look for an instructor that can teach them in a way that works with their learning style. Don't just grab whoever and roll with it.

 

[Reku]

There's simply no substitute for experience, calm demeanor, and attitude ... and none of those are gained through a class

This is VERY VERY important. If a diver isn't calm and collected with a good attitude they should not be attempting advanced dives of any kind. They should not "push" any limits. My point with the classes earlier was that a diver who takes the time to research the skills they need in order to do a dive - would be in a position to "push limits". If a diver can't learn the skills on their own then they should take a class in order to point them in the right direction. Classes can be a stepping stone to achieving experience, a calm demeanor and the correct attitude (this is impossible for some divers) - if you do not possess those traits before hand. Certifications are not silver bullet. They can only guide you. A class is like a check list - it only tells you what skills you should have, it is up to you to become experienced and calm in the water on your own.

Side Note:

A diver who is not calm and collected and willing to learn and put the effort in has no place in the world of technical diving.

 

[BRT]

As you say, doing a course is not the only way to become skilled. The original cave divers did not have a course to do before they embarked on the likes of WKPP, they learned as they went along by expanding on their knowledge bit by bit and asking for expert assistance where possible. Some of that knowledge though was paid for in blood so it would be idiotic to not learn from their mistakes.

The difference I think is in attitude - the willingness to do the graft (learning the skills, doing the research etc) and to understand the reasoning behind an action instead of "just do this if that happens".

Doing a course is not a way to become skilled.