Pushing the limits? Is it a good idea?

[bowlofpetunias]

Yep that is the cave that I was talking about 6 hours from here. Interesting fact about that cave. It was first discovered and explored by free divers. They found the deep entrance first and the bubble cave above it. Then they discovered the shallow entrance and reached a bubble cave that allowed them to breathe and extend their exploring till they recognized the bubble cave above the deep entrance. There have been attempts in the last few years to do that again freediving. I think they had to be crazy going into a dark hole without knowing where it went.. each to their own I guess.

Yes people do that dive on single tanks but last time I was there the Op we dive with required everyone to have backup torches and do a checkout with them before entering the cave. This is the kind of situation that New divers may face and have to make choices about. I know you will ask so yes I will admit I have done the cave. Dive 221, I believe I have done it 3 times. We have been there multiple times but I prefer not to go into the dark zone. The best dives are within the light Zone of the shallow entrance, the Aquarium and Shark gutters which do not involve the cave. Actually I find the up and down currents as the waves and current hit the rock wall rather challenging and don't enjoy that part at all.

It is definitely cave but there is no risk of entanglement, silting or getting lost on a side tunnel. You could put two Greyhound coaches side by side in most of it. That said .. it is still a cave.

You are right there are dozens of caves around the world that are presented as "safe for non cave trained divers". That is why the discussion and video are so important. New divers like I was when I did it are convinced by the fact that thousands of people have done it, dive professionals. friends and buddies present it as no big deal and it is a big draw. Add the fact that not everywhere is it even possible to take a Cave course and people feel... well it will be ok this once. Hey that was no big deal, I can do it again!

I certainly pushed the limits doing that dive....Shall I duck now?

 

[Doby45]

I posted this here again at the request of a ScubaBoard Staff Member who moved the thread to a different location and thought (as I do) that a continued discussion of safety aspects would be a good thing. As much of a surprise as this may come this video was created by a good group of people who gave thanklessly to make it happen because we care about saving lives. The sponsors you are so concerned about allowed us to use their facilities, lent us equipment, filled our tanks, donated their time, and provided us lunch. (that subway sandwich sure tasted good on the 2 1/2 hour ride home that started at 11:00pm on Sunday night when we finally wrapped it up) Thanks for your kind words but that chip on your shoulder certainly is unattractive.

No chip at all. My statement was simply based off the fact that this was published in multiple forum sections. No one else would be able to do that and at that point it looked a bit "self-grandizing". Nothing at all to do with the video. No idea where your "chip" comment came from and that would appear to be a bit reflective of your own mood. The only "critique" I gave to the video at all was the FIGJAM attitude that Pete even alluded to. I have worked in video production so I know the time and effort that goes into it and I also currently work in law enforcement so I thought the whole "cop chastising the kid bit" was funny as someone else said he went all knife hands on the kid. Kudos to you and your awesome video and as you said "If it saves even one single life it was worth it." Maybe now you guys can do a video to show rebreathers how to not die in the caves as that appears to be much more rampant issue right now than open water divers dying..

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Hey guys can we keep it on topic please. The Thread about the video is where to discuss the merits of the video, this one is in a flame free zone and the topic is discussing factors that will help New Divers make choices about what dives are safe for them to do. The link to the video is secondary to that.

 

[Patoux01]

Shall I duck now?

No reason for it. Your post simply shows that it cannot be expected from OW students to both get told:
-Never go in an overhead environment
-Always trust your PADI dive shop

Hence my view on the agencies...

FWIW, I did those dives a few times in 4 days, were dives ~60. In the same way I did the Coolidge for dives 40-50. I felt pretty confident in both places, equipped with independent twins and 2 torches. But I've seen things in both those locations that were, well, scary. Going from a guy with no computer/gauge on a deco dive, to people that walked down a hill underwater (literally walking). And if an instructor from a shop that is praised by most "mainstream" divers tells you it's perfectly fine, who are you to tell him no with your 3 dives? ("you" here being a beginner, not you, nor me)

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Exactly why a thread like this is valuable. I would say looking back that I felt pressured into doing that dive and I WAS a newbe at 221 dives. I did hold off till then to do the dive because I wanted to have done enough dives to be absolutely comfortable about depth, time, current and so on. I had my own gear in good condition, spare torches, experienced buddies who had done the dive I thought at the time I had done enough dives to do it "safely". I felt I was making an informed choice but I still felt stressed about doing it and all the reassurance from buddies, friends and the dive op influenced that decision.

I would also say that all diver training agencies share responsibilities for these issues not just PADI, NAUI, SSI...etc

 

[Richard FDC]

I think this is an important enough topic that we discuss it without splitting hairs. Too many people think it is ok to do Overhead environments when they aren't ready/trained.

I agree with boulderjohn as I often do.. we need to have a better parameters for the discussion here. Saying "Pushing the limits" is non specific. What we need to discuss is what those limits should be. We can see that the anchor chain analogy is silly but a discussion about the definition of what experienced divers consider to be overhead environments. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in the past BUT active discussion is a benefit to our new members who are often also new divers.

Some locations dive operators present these dives as "no bid deal.. we do it all the time". Divers then wind up making a choice about what they will or will not do. A discussion about the issues could be helpful in giving new divers the parameters to make better choices and giving them the confidence to "Just say NO".

IMHO too often new divers don't want to "hold anyone back" or appear to be too timid. We need to support them. Sadly I don't think there are enough instructors out there like Bob and Jim Lapenda who prepare their students to say NO.


We would have to drive 6 hours to get to the nearest cave. There are a lot of swim throughs and I regularly poke my head under ledges. I hate any tight space where there is any chance of being hung up such as wrecks. I feel comfortable entering an area where I may not be able to ascend directly to the surface but can ascend at an angle of 60degrees, never lose the sight of daylight and silting is not a risk. To me that is not "pushing the limits". I'd be interested to hear what others say... and certainly encourage people to watch the video for educational purposes.

All very good points. I'll throw in my 2 cents. There is a fine line between challenging ourselves and recklessness. I believe it's a good idea for divers to learn new skills and then become adept at them. This could be called "pushing the limits," but it needs to be done reasonably. There's an old saying from the corporate world, "Dress for the next higher position," I have a similar philosophy for divers. Take a class and learn new skills. Go out and practice those skills and become very good. Then look at the next level to see what skills are necessary. Begin to incorporate those next level skills into the diving you do at your current level. You'll be much better prepared when you take the next level class. "Zero to Hero" has become very popular these days and I'm not a big fan. There is no substitute for experience. You may have all the training in the world but there is no lesson that can be taught as effectively as an actual "come to Jesus," moment. So, the take away? Advice for new divers- Knowledge is power. Learn as much as you can about the different aspects of the sport and see what interests you. Seek out knowledgeable and helpful mentors and ask a lot of questions. Never let anybody take you any place where you are uncomfortable or unprepared. Seek good training and check out the person providing that training. Once you get the training practice the skills and become very proficient before moving on to the next level. And here's one of the basic precepts of cave diving: "Any diver can call any dive at any time for any reason." If you are in a position where things just don't feel right there is no shame in calling the dive. The oceans have been here for a long time and there's always another day. Last but not least. Over the years I've been asked on dive boats after a dive, "Why so quiet?" I always find myself in analysis mode after a dive. After your dive when the info is still fresh think about the things that happened. Analyze what went right and what went wrong and consider what you could have done better. Also remember what you did well. Most of all let your mind absorb the beauty and awe of the experience you just had. After all diving is supposed to be fun!

 

[Neilwood]

All very good points. I'll throw in my 2 cents. There is a fine line between challenging ourselves and recklessness. I believe it's a good idea for divers to learn new skills and then become adept at them. This could be called "pushing the limits," but it needs to be done reasonably. There's an old saying from the corporate world, "Dress for the next higher position," I have a similar philosophy for divers. Take a class and learn new skills. Go out and practice those skills and become very good. Then look at the next level to see what skills are necessary. Begin to incorporate those next level skills into the diving you do at your current level. You'll be much better prepared when you take the next level class. "Zero to Hero" has become very popular these days and I'm not a big fan. There is no substitute for experience. You may have all the training in the world but there is no lesson that can be taught as effectively as an actual "come to Jesus," moment. So, the take away? Advice for new divers- Knowledge is power. Learn as much as you can about the different aspects of the sport and see what interests you. Seek out knowledgeable and helpful mentors and ask a lot of questions. Never let anybody take you any place where you are uncomfortable or unprepared. Seek good training and check out the person providing that training. Once you get the training practice the skills and become very proficient before moving on to the next level. And here's one of the basic precepts of cave diving: "Any diver can call any dive at any time for any reason." If you are in a position where things just don't feel right there is no shame in calling the dive. The oceans have been here for a long time and there's always another day. Last but not least. Over the years I've been asked on dive boats after a dive, "Why so quiet?" I always find myself in analysis mode after a dive. After your dive when the info is still fresh think about the things that happened. Analyze what went right and what went wrong and consider what you could have done better. Also remember what you did well. Most of all let your mind absorb the beauty and awe of the experience you just had. After all diving is supposed to be fun!

I think attitude is very important to being a good safe diver - I will call a dive if I don't "feel" it. My buddy can shout at me on the surface all he wants afterwards but if something isn't right, call it (and I would be happy if they had the same attitude).

I too tend to be a bit quiet after a dive, thinking about good bits and bad.

 

[boulderjohn]

There is a fine line between challenging ourselves and recklessness.

I started a thread a couple months ago in the instructor to instructor forum on this topic. I was trying to get my mind around an article that could serve as effective guidance for divers of all ability levels. I got some ideas and tried to make the article. It is still in very rough draft form because I just can't figure out what to say and how to say it.

I was moved to write it because of the death of a friend. I had not known him a long time, but I had taken to him immediately. He was a very, very highly skilled and experienced diver--far beyond me in both skill and experience. Some would disagree, but I would argue that his death was caused by pushing beyond his limits. That shows that making good, sound judgments in this regard is an issue for all divers of all abilities. It also shows how hard it is to make those decisions.

That is why I dismiss out of hand all simplistic sentences that mask that true complexity and offer no real guidance whatsoever. The "No overhead environments!" rule is a pet peeve of mine. It implies that all overhead environments are the same. How many brand new divers take their first dive trip to Cozumel (as I did) and are led by a guide through a short swim through (as I was)? How many south Florida OW divers routinely enter the wide open decks of the hundreds of wrecks sunk as artificial reefs and advertised as dive destinations by all the local operators? How many thousands of such dives are done around the world each year? How many tens or hundreds of thousands of divers have decided that rule can be routinely ignored? Once they have decided that overhead environments are OK, how can they know which ones are beyond their ability?

For that reason, I created a course called "Understanding Overhead Environments." This course shows the escalating danger of overhead environments and explains in detail why it is probably OK to do that short Cozumel swim through but absolutely not OK to enter a cave without proper training and equipment.

 

[Richard FDC]

I had the great honor of being able to write this account of one of my friend Edd Sorenson's rescues. In the process I had a couple hours of phone conversation with the father of the young girl. One of the telling things was his statement that his kids knew what caverns are like because he had taken them into the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs. Therein lies the problem. The Ballroom at Ginnie springs is unlike almost any cavern anywhere and is not representative of the challenges of overhead diving. That's why openwater divers are allowed to go there. It's also why our attempts to educate are so vital. I've always felt that it is absolutely not enough to say, "Don;t go into the overhead." We have to also explain why. By doing that we allow reason to enter the minds of the inexperienced divers instead of just shutting them off. My buddies and I always make a point of engaging openwater divers we see at sites we also cave dive at. We explain all the extra gear and the obstacles you are likely to face. By taking the mystery out of it for them it allows them to understand it and make the logical decision to get training if you are interested in that type of diving.

Rescue at Twin Caves- A Lesson for SCUBA Divers | Florida Dive Connection - Florida SCUBA Diving News and Information

 

[Richard FDC]

I think attitude is very important to being a good safe diver - I will call a dive if I don't "feel" it. My buddy can shout at me on the surface all he wants afterwards but if something isn't right, call it (and I would be happy if they had the same attitude).

I too tend to be a bit quiet after a dive, thinking about good bits and bad.

In our cave diving group of friends we have a "3 issue" policy. If 3 things go wrong (however minor) before we make the dive we call it. The caves will be there tomorrow.