Product Review: New “Generation 2” BARE SB Drysuit

[Deep South Divers]

 

[tech3324]

Sorry to hear about the SB, you certainly analyzed the problem well. Would you consider a Bare XCS2 suit as a replacement? It's advertised as having "4-way stretch".

 

[Deep South Divers]

Hunh! Look at that... I wasn't aware that BARE was offering a new stretch drysuit... But you're right... They are. Yes, that's an excellent option: Warranty this SB stretch trilam for a new XCS2 stretch neoprene suit.

Historically we haven't been fans of neoprene drysuits because of their inherent buoyancy. They also take forever to dry and were very heavy. These latter two complaints were really negotiables for us, more so than with sport divers flying to exotic destinations. None of our wetsuits are dry by the next day, for example, so we don't really care if we don a wet or partially wet suit the next day, especially if it's dry on the inside; and since we're all driving dedicated dive trucks and boats, the weight doesn't really matter. But the inherent buoyancy and the additional lead we had to dive with was not something we were willing to deal with. The ones we knew were made of thick, spongy neoprene, with predictable characteristics.

When this SB delaminated, I got in touch with my old friends at DUI (we have had many of their drysuits) and asked if they had any recommendations. When they offered a CF200 "crushed" neoprene suit, we pointed out the problems we've had with neoprene suits in the past, and our reasons for avoiding them. DUI told us that there was no inherent buoyancy in their neoprene - the opposite of what we'd been told by DUI dealers. Finding this difficult to believe, we were sent a sample, which we promptly compared to a sample of their CLX450 trilaminate material. We have owned CLX450's in the past and been impressed by the suit's ruggedness but put off by its reduced range of motion when dived fully deflated (but equalized).

For reference - and just so we're all on the same page - I'll share what I mean by, "deflated but equalized:"

Several of my divers are GUE-trained, so unlike many commercial divers we have a propensity for backplates and wings, minimalistic, modular and consistent gear configurations, and of course the hallmark flat, prone position in the water column with perfect buoyancy control. Unfortunately we rarely have the opportunity to work in a prone position, as we're often inverted and reaching overhead or on the seabed bracing ourselves so we can operate machinery like underwater chainsaws and reciprocating saws. (See .) Most of the time we're upside-down or sideways or even vertical in the water column... Whatever we need to do in order to complete the job we've been tasked to do.

As such, diving in a drysuit means that any air in the suit must be minimized so that we don't encounter problems with a migrating bubble within the suit. Any air inside the suit "pools" at the highest point, be that high shoulder or arm or legs. We therefore dive with fully open exhaust valves, relying exclusively on the exhaust valve's built-in check valve to keep water out.

To avoid squeeze at depth, we inflate the suit... But any bubble indide the suit escapes from the exhaust valve, creating a point of equalization of pressure within the suit... No bubble to migrate, but no squeeze either. It's a very specific point created by a fully open exhaust valve. All changes in depth must be compensated, especially at the shallow depths where we typically operate.

This specific point of equalization - which I'll call an "equalized" suit - stiffens a non-stretch trilaminate suit to the point of reducing the diver's ability to move. Elbows, shoulders, hips and knees all experience a reduced range of motion brought on by the trilaminate material "shrink-wrapping" the diver. Sport divers add a little air to the suit; we don't have that luxury because of our atypical position in the water.

Diving a drysuit and undergarment made of a stretchable material solves this problem for us. Any "shrink-wrapping" does not reduce the diver's range of motion if the fabrics stretch... Even if he/she is diving at that point of equalization to avoid the migrating bubble.

...So we were super-excited to experience the stretch trilaminate BARE SB fabric. It did a nice job of providing stretch without the inherent buoyancy found in neoprene fabric suits. It lived up to it's promise, too, until it delaminated just a few months later. Delamination - or any reason for a leak in a drysuit - is a dealbreaker.

...Which is why DUI sent us a sample of their "crushed" neoprene fabric that they use in their CF200 drysuits.

Having a level of stretch 2-3 times more than our beloved BARE SB and promising no possibility of delamination, our reservation with any neoprene was it's inherent buoyancy. Tests proved that in fact DUI was correct: The CF200 material was not only less buoyant than other neoprene fabrics, but actually NEGATIVE in a glass of freshwater:

I cut a 1" square of both the CLX450 trilaminate material and a 1" square of their "crushed" neoprene. I gave the fabrics a few minutes to get fully wet and offgas... And this is the result. The floater is the CLX450 trilaminate fabric. The sinker is the CF200 stretch crushed neoprene.

...So yes, it's possible to make a stretch, neoprene drysuit with an inherent negative buoyancy.

DUI does it through a process of basically baking 3mil neoprene under pressure in a hyperbaric chamber at depth. A video of it can be seen here:


If this BARE XCS2 is anything like DUI's CF200 material, we're in... And to do it while keeping the TiZip and nonextending torso would be fantastic.

I'll call today and return my BARE SB and request a sample of the XCS2 fabric for bouyancy testing.

The big questions are:

1. Will BARE's "hyper-compressed neoprene" be as stretchy as the "crushed" neoprene in the CF200?

2. Will BARE's "hyper-compressed neoprene" be as negatively buoyant as the "crushed" neoprene in the CF200?

3. Will BARE's "hyper-compressed neoprene be as durable as the "crushed" neoprene in the CF200? DUi starts with 3mil neoprene... BARE claims theirs is 2mil.

4. We love the TiZip, and it has proven flexible and waterproof and less problematic than a brass YKK drysuit zipper... But DUI says they're not as durable or as strong laterally. This makes sense since metal is always stronger than plastic... Yet we have favored the TiZips, especially since they do not require maintenance lubrication. The DUI CF200 is not available with a TiZip... So we're excited to get to keep our TiZips but are now worried that they won't last. Only time will tell.

5. We have enjoyed the simplicity, clean lines and streamlinedness of the nonextending torso, only workable due to stretch fabrics. DUI says that the extending torso reduces wear on the fabric during donning and makes the suit easier to get on. We're on the fence with this one... We prefer the nonextending torso but if it's necessary to increase suit life, then perhaps it's a better idea. Again, time will tell.

I'll keep you posted on what BARE says today.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Alright... Call made. Return authorization sent.

Calling the company - Huish Outdoors - was a trick. I was immediately put into a phone tree and given only option 1 (sales) and option 9 (dial by extension). Pressing 1 rang and rang... No answer. Pressing 0 was denied. Pressing 9 worked, but since I didn't know anyone's extension, I was lost. Pressing 0 at this menu was denied.

I hung up and called back 15 minutes later. Same.

The third time waz maybe 30 minutes later. This time pressing 1 got me to a live person (with a foreign accent). She was quick to understand the problem and offered a return authorization number. I am to send the SB back, where a person will assess the issue and either offer a repair or replacement suit. I suspect that since the SB is no longer being made, the latter will be offered to me.

I explained that I now had no drysuit to work in... But she said they had no loaner suit or anything to offer. I suppose I'm just screwed. Ah well... I guess it's back to diving a wetsuit in the meantime. That's the worst part about all of this: I've paid for a drysuit but have to dive wet.

Knowing that I'll probably be offered a new, non-SB suit, I asked her for a sample of the fabric being used in the BARE XCS2. I'd be able to tell immediately if it'd work for us based on stretch and buoyancy. "I'm sorry," she said, "I have no way of sending something like that to you. These suits are made in Malta." I don't know what that has to do with not being able to get a sample... Can they not ship an envelope from Malta? Grrr...

I then asked her point-blank how stretchy the XCS2 fabric is... Knowing, of course, that the SB trilaminate is surprisingly stretchy, and the DUI CF200 material 2-3 times stretchier. "Oh, it's stretchy, but it's not as stretchy as the SB."

I believe she's wrong about that... The XCS2 material is probably STRETCHIER than the SB trilaminate material... But either way she clearly has personally seen or dived neither of the two suits or she'd have given some better feedback.

I think it's high time to dump BARE as a whole and just go with that CF200. I know the owner well and just being able to get clear answers - and reliable answers - domestically - may be worth it.

I get so sick of dealing with large, slippery corporations that have no interest in anything but my money.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

HI Deep South,

Not to sidetrack too much, but you had a glowing review a while ago of the Thermalution heated shirt for underneath a wetsuit. I am seriously thinking about this, can you give a long-term update?

 

[dbulmer]

Alright... Call made. Return authorization sent.

Calling the company - Huish Outdoors - was a trick. I was immediately put into a phone tree and given only option 1 (sales) and option 9 (dial by extension). Pressing 1 rang and rang... No answer. Pressing 0 was denied. Pressing 9 worked, but since I didn't know anyone's extension, I was lost. Pressing 0 at this menu was denied.

I hung up and called back 15 minutes later. Same.

The third time waz maybe 30 minutes later. This time pressing 1 got me to a live person (with a foreign accent). She was quick to understand the problem and offered a return authorization number. I am to send the SB back, where a person will assess the issue and either offer a repair or replacement suit. I suspect that since the SB is no longer being made, the latter will be offered to me.

I explained that I now had no drysuit to work in... But she said they had no loaner suit or anything to offer. I suppose I'm just screwed. Ah well... I guess it's back to diving a wetsuit in the meantime. That's the worst part about all of this: I've paid for a drysuit but have to dive wet.

Knowing that I'll probably be offered a new, non-SB suit, I asked her for a sample of the fabric being used in the BARE XCS2. I'd be able to tell immediately if it'd work for us based on stretch and buoyancy. "I'm sorry," she said, "I have no way of sending something like that to you. These suits are made in Malta." I don't know what that has to do with not being able to get a sample... Can they not ship an envelope from Malta? Grrr...

I then asked her point-blank how stretchy the XCS2 fabric is... Knowing, of course, that the SB trilaminate is surprisingly stretchy, and the DUI CF200 material 2-3 times stretchier. "Oh, it's stretchy, but it's not as stretchy as the SB."

I believe she's wrong about that... The XCS2 material is probably STRETCHIER than the SB trilaminate material... But either way she clearly has personally seen or dived neither of the two suits or she'd have given some better feedback.

I think it's high time to dump BARE as a whole and just go with that CF200. I know the owner well and just being able to get clear answers - and reliable answers - domestically - may be worth it.

I get so sick of dealing with large, slippery corporations that have no interest in anything but my money.

And so say all of us !

 

[Aqua-Andy]

Back before Bare was owned by Huish Outdoors they were a Great company to deal with. From reports here Zeagle's CS has gone to hell since the acquisition by Huish. I have never experienced good CS from a company that has been acquired by a large conglomerate. If I were in your situation I would be unloading the Bare and going with the DUI, at least you can call and talk to someone that knows what they are talking about when you do have an issue.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Pretty much nails my thoughts as well, Aqua-Andy. Longtimenosee, by the way.

Huish Outdoors just acquired SUUNTO too. :-/

 

[Deep South Divers]

HI Deep South,

Not to sidetrack too much, but you had a glowing review a while ago of the Thermalution heated shirt for underneath a wetsuit. I am seriously thinking about this, can you give a long-term update?

Yeah, sure.

I sold my Thermalution around six months ago. It had probably 200 dives on it and was still running like a champ, even though I'd gotten the wired controller caught in the business end of an underwater chainsaw. It gouged it, but it was still functional.

Yep, it worked great... Better under a wetsuit than a drysuit because the water inside the suit spread the heat around better than air did. I also had the wired edition, so once it was in a drysuit, there was no controlling it... But it didn't really matter since I preferred the low setting for the longest life anyway. Truth be told - after the chainsaw incident, I learned to stuff the controller in the wetsuit too.

The Thermalution did a great job making a wetsuit warmer... At least for a couple of hours. It didn't turn a wetsuit into a drysuit, but that had it's advantages sometimes... Like mobility, cost, risk, and simplicity.

I sold mine because I didn't need it. With a drysuit and undergarment that dove much like a wetsuit in terms of mobility, I decided to dive dry more often than I have in the past and gain the biggest advantage of diving dry: Getting out of the water and rinsing while wearing the suit rather than hosing off in swim trunks on the dock.

Two of my guys still swear by theirs. Get one. You'll love it, wet or dry.

 

[KevinNM]

Huish Outdoors just acquired SUUNTO too. :-/

They are just distributing them. Suunto is a lot bigger than just dive computers. I'm not sure customer service will be worse with Huish, it was supposed to be pretty bad previously. So far the atomic reputation for good service seems to still be intact.

And yeah, my replacement for my Bare suit was a Santi via Extreme Exposure and I got the former manager and current US Santi sales manager to measure me. Nice suit, I can even do a valve drill in it with my screwed up shoulder and a mid layer as long as I properly manipulate the suit excess fabric first.