Problem with Magnum First Stage Service by Authorized Service Center

[keyshunter]

waterskier,
I would not throw out the "baby with the bathwater" on your Magnum. It is, however, imperative that you remove the flow restrictor or you will indeed need a new body. Depending upon the age of your reg, the flow restrictor will have either a scintered filter at the bottom (older style), in which case you replace the entire restrictor, or a small white foam puck filter (newer), in which case you just replace he foam. This foam filter is supplied in current Sherwood rebuild kits.

Many years ago, although I had done a stint as an industrial sewing machine mechanic, and was not concerned about digging into complicated mechanisms, I didn't want to bother with servicing my regs since I was in the water almost every day, had other regs, and was very busy. I returned a new Sherwood reg (the old model with the filter in the piston) to an LDS in the Keys 3 times because it "stuttered" with every breath. It was always returned with the same problem. Finally, with no manual, (that was before the internet) I took the first stage apart. I marveled at how simple it was, but could visually find nothing wrong, except that the o rings, particularly the large piston one, seemed dry. I lubed the o-rings, and put it back together. The stutter was gone and it went at least 300 dives before I touched it again. A lot of water has passed under my keel since that time, and, while I still utilize an LDS occasionally (usually because I cannot get parts), I do most of my reg service. While there are some excellent reg techs out there, they do seem to be in the minority. From your story above, you seem to have found a couple of beauts.

 

[Waterskier1]

waterskier,
I would not throw out the "baby with the bathwater" on your Magnum. It is, however, imperative that you remove the flow restrictor or you will indeed need a new body. Depending upon the age of your reg, the flow restrictor will have either a scintered filter at the bottom (older style), in which case you replace the entire restrictor, or a small white foam puck filter (newer), in which case you just replace he foam. This foam filter is supplied in current Sherwood rebuild kits.

Thanks, the east coast reg shop identified this flow restrictor as the potential problem, but the assembly was "seized". They called me, and since I had nothing to loose (the reg wasn't working correctly) I requested they use "excessive force" in an attempt to remove it. That didn't work and it stripped the hex out. I think they even tried drilling it out (maybe to use an easy-out), to no avail. Therefore, I don't know which type of filter it has, but it's beyond repair.

I don't blame either shop for the fact that it was seized. I bought this particular reg set used, and it might have been that way before I took ownership. I do blame the local LDS for not notifying me of that problem, the first time they serviced it in 2007, and subsequent services.

I am looking at one of my Sherwood Service Kits, Kit # 4000-15. I see two small white plastic cylinders. I believe one is item #978-9BN, Seat Insert (for Stem) on the 2nd Stage and the other is #5105-14, Filter for the Flow Control Element. There is also Item #5105-6, Gasket for Flow Control Element. I'm not sure which of the white cylinders is which, without taking apart a reg, but this seems to clearly indicate that there are indeed replacement parts for the Flow Restrictor (Control) Assembly.

This adds to the ignorance of my local LDS. I wonder what they have been doing with the "left over" parts? [Kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, and pulled the engine of a rear engine Renault to replace the clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing. My Dad asked how many time I would have to replace the clutch before I had enough "left over" parts to build a new car - But I was 15 y/o and not charging anyone much less a Authorized Factory Repair Center for Renault]

Many years ago, although I had done a stint as an industrial sewing machine mechanic, and was not concerned about digging into complicated mechanisms, I didn't want to bother with servicing my regs since I was in the water almost every day, had other regs, and was very busy. I returned a new Sherwood reg (the old model with the filter in the piston) to an LDS in the Keys 3 times because it "stuttered" with every breath. It was always returned with the same problem. Finally, with no manual, (that was before the internet) I took the first stage apart. I marveled at how simple it was, but could visually find nothing wrong, except that the o rings, particularly the large piston one, seemed dry. I lubed the o-rings, and put it back together. The stutter was gone and it went at least 300 dives before I touched it again. A lot of water has passed under my keel since that time, and, while I still utilize an LDS occasionally (usually because I cannot get parts), I do most of my reg service. While there are some excellent reg techs out there, they do seem to be in the minority. From your story above, you seem to have found a couple of beauts.

I thought about attempting repair of this myself, but since I found a shop (the east coast reg shop) that was able to identify the potential problem, and even if it wasn't the cause of my instant problem, it was something that needed to be taken care of. I decided to let them use their expertise in an attempt to break the seize. I don't think I could have done better. I both the "bonnet" or "nut" or "cap" or whatever the correct term for the portion of the flow restrictor assembly that threads into the body of the reg, and captures the filter, and the body of the reg are made of the same material, I was told. That would eliminate application of heat to help break the seize (playing on different coefficients of thermal expansion), and they had some sort of chemical anti-seize they tried before application of extreme force. I don't think I could have done better, although I'm sure there are some out there who have ideas to try.

Again, the main reason I posted was to see if Sherwood had any policies or procedures in place that their Authorized reg tech should be following. I haven't heard from anyone who is a Sherwood Trainer or Sherwood Trained, indicating a minimum level of "service" one should expect (and get) from a Reg Service job.

 

[keyshunter]

FYI, the larger white teflon puck is the high pressure seat, and the smaller "foam like" puck is the flow control filter. It sounds like they have done their best to remove the flow control unit. Sorry to say, but, unless that part is removed so that the filter can be replaced, that first stage is toast.

 

[Sherwood SCUBA rep.]

Waterskier,

I am not sure that I understand everything that you outlined in your original email here, but I do want to address some of your questions and comments for you, as well as everyone else that has participated in the forum.

First, let me say I don’t know all the details of this particular situation. I don’t know what conversations took place between you and U/W Connection. And I can’t make any assertions of exactly was done to your regulator.

But before moving any further, I do have to give Underwater Connections some benefit of the doubt. They have been a Sherwood Dealer for 20 years and we have never had a service complaint about them. They have a very good record of servicing not only Sherwood regulators but Aqua Lung, Oceanic, and Atomic Regulators as well. They are known in the industry as running a very good operation. They have all the required equipment that any of these manufacturers require. Some of you questioned about a magnahelic. None of the companies I have mentioned (Sherwood, Aqua Lung, Oceanic, or Atomic) require their shops to have one.

So that I have a better understanding of everything I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

1. The Sherwood Magnum that you took into service to U/W Connection. If I am reading your post correctly you purchased it used in 2007. What model of the Magnum Regulator is it? Is it the 3000 Series, 5000 Series, or 7000 Series?

2. The other Magnum 2nd Stage, you called it (NOS). Where did you purchase that one from? And is it the same version at the other Magnum you have?

In regards to the questions about the Flow Restrictor Screw, if the Flow Restrictor Screw was damaged the 2nd stage would be more difficult to breathe. That is correct.

In regards to the questions about what parts come in the parts kit? I would need to know what version of the first stage you have before answering the question properly.

Sherwood Scuba Rep.

 

[Waterskier1]

Waterskier,

I am not sure that I understand everything that you outlined in your original email here, but I do want to address some of your questions and comments for you, as well as everyone else that has participated in the forum.

First, let me say I don’t know all the details of this particular situation. I don’t know what conversations took place between you and U/W Connection. I'll attempt to answer what I can, as I recall them. You are free to solicit U/W Connections' recollection also. And I can’t make any assertions of exactly was done to your regulator. Oddly, neither can I. There doesn't appear to be any process or procedure to ascertain what was done, and what wasn't. Nor was any objective data (IP pressure, inhalation or exhalation effort, etc.) provided. I have have is a bill for the service. That is one reason I started this thread...to see if there are procedures that Sherwood requires to be followed, and documentation required to address any deviations from those procedures. I requested the regs be "serviced", what many might refer to as "annual service".

But before moving any further, I do have to give Underwater Connections some benefit of the doubt. They have been a Sherwood Dealer for 20 years and we have never had a service complaint about them. They have a very good record of servicing not only Sherwood regulators but Aqua Lung, Oceanic, and Atomic Regulators as well. They are known in the industry as running a very good operation. They have all the required equipment that any of these manufacturers require. Some of you questioned about a magnahelic. None of the companies I have mentioned (Sherwood, Aqua Lung, Oceanic, or Atomic) require their shops to have one. I thought they were a good shop too. I wouldn't have knowingly taken my regs to a "bad" shop. Originally, I thought it was just an oversight or a mistake. None of us are perfect. Even after taking it back, not having anything done, and then sending it out for someone to look at, and they found the potential problem, I gave U/W Connections the benefit of doubt when I presented what I found. It wasn't until after the owner became quite defensive, proclaimed they couldn't have made an error, they went to the same schools as all other reg techs, so no other tech could know more than them, and then that the Flow Restrictor has no effect on the reg's performance, and stated that the Flow Restrictor Assembly wasn't part of the Repair Kit, that I became very suspicious. As far as the Magnahelic, I don't know if that is required by any or not, that's why I'm posting. The Shewood Assembly and Maintenance Guide, Part Number S-MAN2004, provides the following Specifications:
INHALATION RESISTANCE: 0.9" (2.3 cm) w.c. @ 1 atmosphere
EXHALATION RESISTANCE: 0.7" (1.8 cm) w.c @1 atm.

The usual way (that I know) for measuring this is a Magnahelic. They didn't provide an alternate way of showing compliance to this specification. Granted, the manual does provide for simply immersing the 2nd stage in water and, if no instruments are available, the exhalation effort "should feel smooth and unrestricted". I find it unusual that a shop today wouldn't have a Magnahelic (I just ordered one for under $50 including shipping). The east coast shop found the 2nd stage Inhalation Resistance to be about 1.7, I think. U/W Connections also told me that the only adjustment they make to the 2nd stage is the inline orifice adjustment. The NEVER bend anything, stating that is a factory adjustment only. The east coast shop said that bending adjust may be necessary anytime the seat is replaced, and that is why the procedure is included in the Assembly and Maintenance Guide.


So that I have a better understanding of everything I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

1. The Sherwood Magnum that you took into service to U/W Connection. If I am reading your post correctly you purchased it used in 2007. Correct. What model of the Magnum Regulator is it? Is it the 3000 Series, 5000 Series, or 7000 Series? SRB5300.

2. The other Magnum 2nd Stage, you called it (NOS). Where did you purchase that one from? I don't recall. I was a person acting as a private party, selling off inventory of a defunct dive shop. And is it the same version at the other Magnum you have? Yes, both are SRB5300s.

In regards to the questions about the Flow Restrictor Screw, if the Flow Restrictor Screw was damaged the 2nd stage would be more difficult to breathe. That is correct. The Flow Restrictor Screw was damaged by the second reg shop (the "east coast" shop, after I returned the reg to U/W Connections because it was breathing hard. U/W Connections found no problems, but charged me for another service of the regulator. Since I knew it worked better, and I was sure something was amiss, I sent it to the east coast shop, which has been recommended by many divers. They were the ones that found the Immediate Pressure (IP) below specs. U/W Connections' records show it was at 130 psi, after the first (2009) rebuild. They didn't provide me with any objective measurements from the second "look". The spec's on this reg are (according to the above mentioned manual/guide)"

INTERSTAGE PRESSURE: 135 - 150 psi (9-10 bar).

So, it left U/W Connections originally below spec's.

Additionally, this reg was "serviced" by U/W Connections in 2007 also. According to the east coast shop, the Flow Restrictor Screw was seized, and didn't look to have been unscrewed in "years". Talking with the owner, this seems possible, since he didn't believe the there were any serviceable parts there, much less included in the Parts Kit. I didn't know it at the time, but have since been shown and confirmed with a parts kit #4000-15, that there are indeed parts which should have been replaced.

The owner of U/W Connections said that if the screw couldn't be unseized without potential damage to the reg, they would not have unscrewed it. I asked if they wouldn't have notified the customer that they couldn't unscrew it, and therefore, were unable to completely service the reg, or if they would just service what they can, and return the reg as "serviced". He said they should notify the customer. They didn't, and have no record of any problems encountered during the servicing of my reg, any of the three times they "serviced" it.

It was the east coast shop, who identified the hard breathing at depth problem as a possible clogged Flow Restrictor, and when they couldn't unscrew it, called me to let me know. Since there were no other options what would save the reg body, I authorized "extreme force" in attempt to unseize it. It didn't work.

If the Flow Restrictor was "restricted" by a clogged filter, that was not replaced, or for any other reason, wouldn't this affect the "balanced" portion of the first stage. And, if so, isn't one of the reasons of balancing the first stage to eliminate hard breathing at depth? Wouldn't this be one of the first things (after checking IP pressure) one would check when presented with a "hard breathing at depth, but fine breathing at shallow) problem?

Lastly, I think we have ascertained that the flow restrictor assembly does affect the performance of the first stage, contrary to what U/W Connections says.

In regards to the questions about what parts come in the parts kit? I would need to know what version of the first stage you have before answering the question properly. Answered above, SRB5300.

My real question is: Is there a Sherwood Procedure or, absent that, an Industry Accepted procedure, that defines what a "regulator service" comprises? Does a certain minimum amount of dis-assembly, cleaning, replacement of parts needed (whether included in the Parts Kit or not), and testing with objective data recorded or not.

I have the feeling now that different shops (all Authorized Shops for the subject regulator) can do what they feel necessary, or not do things they think unnecessary. I doesn't leave me, the consumer, with much confidence in taking a reg to an Authorized dealer.


Sherwood Scuba Rep.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

 

[Waterskier1]

Any update on this?

Besides the U/W Connections issue, does Sherwood have any prescribed policies/procedures/or documentation as to what is minimally required to be performed during a service of your regulators? Or, do you just let your service centers do what they want? In other word, should I expect any minimum level and/or consistency of service between Sherwood Authorized Service centers? Should I expect better or more complete service from those Authorized versus those not associated (authorized) by Sherwood. Is there an industry standard minimum level of service prescribed?

Right now, I have lots of "opinions" as to what should be done, but nothing that says what must be done.

If it is just a "freelance" service where the tech does what he wants, and doesn't do what he doesn't want, why would anyone take their Sherwood equipment to a Sherwood Authorized Center versus the tech down the street? I'm loosing confidence in Authorized Service Centers is they provide nothing over what the "tech down the street" (not Sherwood associated).

 

[Sherwood SCUBA rep.]

Hi waterskier,

Sorry for the deley in replying to you.

First, Sherwood does have a set list of procedures to repair or service a regulator, as well as, a list of tools needed to service the regulators. Every shop attends a formal course on regulator repair put on by our technician. We host these course typically 4-6 times a year throughout the country. Many shops will have their technicians attend these courses every two years.

Second, your question about the parts kit: the Magnum Regulator (SRB5300) uses the 4000-15. This parts kit includes: Piston HP Seat, Star Washer, several o-rings, LP Seat, Inlet Filter, and a zip tie for the mouthpiece. The flow restrictor screw is not an item in the parts kit.

The procedure in our manual states:

Using a 3/32" Allen wrench, remove the flow control element assembly from inside the large
end of the main body. There are two styles of flow control assemblies. The old style with a
sintered stainless steel flow restrictor and the new style flow restrictor that is laser drilled P/N
5105-13 with a white filter P/N 5105-14. The new style complete assembly part number is
5105-15. If the regulator has the old style flow restrictor and it is functioning (13 to 27 cc/min) it
can be reused, however if it needs to be replaced use the new style. The black gasket can be
reused. The new style restrictor can be cleaned if it becomes plugged. Remove the white filter
and discard it. The white filter must be replaced P/N 5105-14. The laser drilled flow restrictor
can be cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and reused. The flow requirement for the new flow
control assembly is 20 to 30 cc/min.

So in your case, where the flow restrictor was not operating properly, it should have been removed and replaced. It is only to be replaced, ONLY when the 1st stage is not operating properly.

Does this answer all your questions?

 

[Waterskier1]

Hi waterskier,

Sorry for the deley in replying to you.

First, Sherwood does have a set list of procedures to repair or service a regulator, as well as, a list of tools needed to service the regulators. Every shop attends a formal course on regulator repair put on by our technician. We host these course typically 4-6 times a year throughout the country. Many shops will have their technicians attend these courses every two years.

I found the procedures, as well as the tool list. I know you have it. But is it REQUIRED TO SUBSTANTIALLY FOLLOW be followed? Or are they free to do what they want?

What is Sherwood's position regarding problems or activities that are not or can not be accomplished for one reason or other (possible damage to body in trying to unseize the bolt to just plain too lazy to bother)? Should this be documented and presented to the customer? Documented and not told to the customer? Or, is there no requirement to do anything, so no documentation, good or bad, is required?

Second, your question about the parts kit: the Magnum Regulator (SRB5300) uses the 4000-15. This parts kit includes: Piston HP Seat, Star Washer, several o-rings, LP Seat, Inlet Filter, and a zip tie for the mouthpiece. The flow restrictor screw is not an item in the parts kit.

The screw itself is not included, but the the filter, P/N 5105-14 and the gasket for the screw, P/N 5105-6 are. At least in my Sherwood Scuba Kit # 4000-15 as shown here:

The procedure in our manual states:

Using a 3/32" Allen wrench, remove the flow control element assembly from inside the large
end of the main body. There are two styles of flow control assemblies. The old style with a
sintered stainless steel flow restrictor and the new style flow restrictor that is laser drilled P/N
5105-13 with a white filter P/N 5105-14. The new style complete assembly part number is
5105-15. If the regulator has the old style flow restrictor and it is functioning (13 to 27 cc/min) it
can be reused, however if it needs to be replaced use the new style. The black gasket can be
reused. The new style restrictor can be cleaned if it becomes plugged. Remove the white filter
and discard it. The white filter must be replaced P/N 5105-14. The laser drilled flow restrictor
can be cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and reused. The flow requirement for the new flow
control assembly is 20 to 30 cc/min.

This is followed by a CAUTION! note: If any grease or oil get on the flow control element assembly, the air flow will be impeded.

Then it states:
"If necessary, clean all metal parts of the first stage except the flow control element assembly, in an ultrasonic cleaner or cleaning solution...." [I did not add the bold type, it is in the manual]

The assembly instructions it states:"Install the flow control element into the main body. Tighten the element with a 3/32" Allen wrench with a torque of 3 in. lbs. (0.4 nm). Do not overtighten.

Then, in the TESTING OF FIRST STAGE section, it states: If you have depressed the purge button several times and the pressure is below 135 psig (9.3 bar), you can add ships to increase the pressure.

According to U/W Connections internal log (they didn't provide me with any data) the recorded the IP at 130 psi.

So in your case, where the flow restrictor was not operating properly, it should have been removed and replaced. It is only to be replaced, ONLY when the 1st stage is not operating properly.

Please clarify. As I read the procedure, it is to be removed ALWAYS. It is only to be replaced if 1) it is the old style AND 2) it is not functioning. Otherwise, if it is the new style, it can be cleaned. In any case, it says to "Remove the withe filter are discard it. The white filter must be replaced P/N 5105-14."

As stated above, this filter is part of the Parts Kit. So, it seems to me that the Flow Restrictor should ALWAYS be removed. At a minimum, the filter should be replaced. This would be done as part of the assembly, prior to testing or diagnosis of a problem. DO YOU AGREE? AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?

Does this answer all your questions?

Not quite. See my comments and questions above.


Additionally, in my particular case, I was not told, after either service job by U/W Connections, that any steps were not performed, or could not be performed, or that any parameters were out of manufacturer's tolerance even after returning it for hard breathing at depth.

Clearly the Restrictor screw was either 1) never removed during any of the prior 2 years' servicing, or 2) it was removed and re-torqued so tight that 1-2 months later it could not be removed. But I was emphatically told that the restrictor screw had nothing to do with the operation of the first stage and that the Parts Kit didn't include any parts for the restrictor. Unfortunately, I didn't look up the procedure and parts kit contents prior to taking the regs in for service. I don't believe I should have had to do that.

Also, U/W Connections own records, as relayed to me, showed the IP at 130 psi, versus the specification of 135 to 150 psi.

Additionally, they were unable or unwilling to diagnose and fix or relate to me an unrepairable condition when the reg was returned to them for "hard breathing". Indeed, they told me "nothing is wrong" and charged me again for "servicing" a second time.

I don't know if Sherwood has a Quality Control Division to help ensure compliance to their requirements, or not. My first step was to determine if Sherwood has requirements. I'm not clear on that yet, even though you provided the same steps that I have in a Sherwood document...is it REQUIRED?

Absent any requirement by Sherwood, I am curious if there are any Industry Standards to which shops who repair regs pledge compliance.

It appears to me that U/W Connections made three basic errors. First, they didn't remove the restrictor screw and replace the filter as required. Second, they didn't set the IP to specs. Third, they didn't tell me that they didn't follow or couldn't follow the procedure relative to either of these two above. Plus, they way they lied and handled my complaint just stinks, but I'm sure there is no requirement for customer service levied on them by manufacturers.

As I've stated from the beginning, I went back to U/W Connections with my finding to enlighten them to possible lapses in a procedure, or in training. But I was met with a brick wall being told that "they were training and there was no way under any circumstances that they were wrong". That attitude prompted this thread and further investigation into what procedures were available and what maybe should be followed.

 

[Sherwood SCUBA rep.]

waterskier,

But is it REQUIRED TO SUBSTANTIALLY FOLLOW be followed? Or are they free to do what they want?

To do the regulator repair correctly, they are required to follow all of the procedures. If they do what they want and do not follow each step, they are not repairing the regulator properly.

What is Sherwood's position regarding problems or activities that are not or can not be accomplished for one reason or other (possible damage to body in trying to unseize the bolt to just plain too lazy to bother)? Should this be documented and presented to the customer? Documented and not told to the customer? Or, is there no requirement to do anything, so no documentation, good or bad, is required?

If the body is damaged or the Flow Restrictor Screw is seized. The first stage needs to be replaced. If what your suggesting is true, then you should have been given the option to replace the 1st stage.

Please clarify. As I read the procedure, it is to be removed ALWAYS. It is only to be replaced if 1) it is the old style AND 2) it is not functioning. Otherwise, if it is the new style, it can be cleaned. In any case, it says to "Remove the withe filter are discard it. The white filter must be replaced P/N 5105-14."

The Filter (5105-14) should be removed from the Flow Restrictor Screw and replaced along with the gasket (5105-6) at every service.

Additionally, in my particular case, I was not told, after either service job by U/W Connections, that any steps were not performed, or could not be performed, or that any parameters were out of manufacturer's tolerance even after returning it for hard breathing at depth.

Clearly the Restrictor screw was either 1) never removed during any of the prior 2 years' servicing, or 2) it was removed and re-torqued so tight that 1-2 months later it could not be removed. But I was emphatically told that the restrictor screw had nothing to do with the operation of the first stage and that the Parts Kit didn't include any parts for the restrictor. Unfortunately, I didn't look up the procedure and parts kit contents prior to taking the regs in for service. I don't believe I should have had to do that.

Also, U/W Connections own records, as relayed to me, showed the IP at 130 psi, versus the specification of 135 to 150 psi.

As I said before, I don't know the details of your particular situation other than what you have stated here. I have spoke to the owner there at U/W Connection and he has given me a different story. But based on what you have stated in this forum, should U/W Connections shared this information with you? My answer would be yes.

I don't know if Sherwood has a Quality Control Division to help ensure compliance to their requirements, or not. My first step was to determine if Sherwood has requirements. I'm not clear on that yet, even though you provided the same steps that I have in a Sherwood document...is it REQUIRED?

Sherwood Scuba has a set of procedures that must be followed to properly service a regulator according to Sherwood Scuba specifications. Sherwood Scuba sets forth a set of metrics that a regulator must reach in order to be classified as "Within Specs". You have indicated one of those in your post. The Intermediate Pressure must be between 135-150 PSI.

Do we have a set of Scuba Repair Police going out and making sure that every shop is following these procedures with every regulator that is repaired? We do not.

Sherwood Scuba Rep.

 

[redacted]

waterskier,

But is it REQUIRED TO SUBSTANTIALLY FOLLOW be followed? Or are they free to do what they want?

To do the regulator repair correctly, they are required to follow all of the procedures. If they do what they want and do not follow each step, they are not repairing the regulator properly.

.....

Do we have a set of Scuba Repair Police going out and making sure that every shop is following these procedures with every regulator that is repaired? We do not.

Sherwood Scuba Rep.

Does your dealer agreement place any requirements on your authorized dealers in terms of the service to be performed when servicing Sherwood regulators or any other LDS after-the-sale service related to Sherwood products?

As a customer, what can I expect from an Sherwood dealer in terms of service? And who should I contact when that expected service is not satisfactorily provided?