Primary donation

[DCBC]

just read it. ...and like I said, this situation isn't likely to ever happen to anyone

I never thought that the other situation would happen to me either.

 

[Gombessa]

You can keep changing the hypo by pouring on additional failures (OOG diver, broken backup, inability to buddy breathe), but it really seems like a lot of these problems should have been discovered and/or prevented before the dive even begins.

 

[JeffG]

So you donate the Primary and find that the Secondary fails. How will you handle the situation?

use the bcd inflator.

 

[rongoodman]

Hopefully your "Technical Diver" buddy, knows how to buddy breathe.

You're making some good arguments for learning to buddy breath, but I still see the risk/benefit argument favoring primary donate.

 

[elan]

Part of the described situation assumed that BB was not possible. With PADI's removal of this skill, chances are higher that your buddy will be unable to do this in the future.

What is your point ? No mater what hose system you adapt if you have 3 non working regs and only 1 working you end up either buddy breathing or one will be shooting for the surface or sinking down and my bet it would not be the donor

 

[watboy]

With your backup bunged around your neck, there is no excuse not to breath on it before the dive...it is there taunting your lips.

...

I would venture to say there have been many more instances of Octos failing vs. bunged 2nd's failing in OOG situations.

These are maintenance and pre-dive check issues. You could also test your octopus when you are familiarizing your buddy with your alternate air setup. The, necklace second stages don't fail argument, I think dodges the question

 

[Thalassamania]

...

The long hose Hog looping concept does not deploy as quickly as the standard octopus configuration and is prone to entanglement. For open water sport diving I see no reason to switch to a cave diving/overhead tech system.

N

I'd say that on the whole it deploys faster since you always know exactly where it is.

Thanks for your response Gerbs. I do however have to disagree with your noted statement. You are not "in the same situation you would be in before, had you given a non-functioning secondary." Lets examine the difference:

#1 In my scenario

1. You (the Rescuer) has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. The OOA Diver finds a non-functioning Secondary.

At this point the OOA Diver may well be in deep do-do.

3. The OOA Diver will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.

A somewhat panicked CESA is most likely.

4. The OOA Diver is unencumbered; he simply drops the non-functioning secondary and does a CESA.

Somehow, I doubt that.

5. You would follow the OOA Diver to the surface and be there for support, as required.

#2 In your scenario

1. The OOA Diver has air and does not need to get to the surface.
2. You (the Rescuer) finds a non-functioning Secondary.

Rather unlikely with a necklaced second or an inflator style unit.

3. You will either ask to buddy breath, or do a CESA.

If we BB, fine ... if I have to CESA us both, fine.

4. If a CESA is required, you are encumbered.

Yea, by the victim whom I want to keep with me.

5. Trying to retrieve the only functioning regulator may result in both divers drowning.

I don't know that I'd bother.

6. Alternatively, you could attempt to remove your kit and make a CESA yourself.

Naw, I'll keep a hold of the victim.

7. The OOA Diver may not be able to closely follow you to the surface (suited with a non-functioning BC and an operational one in his hands).

What BC's not working, and why does that matter? You can always drop a belt.

Personally, I'm going to pick Door #1.

This is where I shake my head. To me, you have put the rescuer at FAR more risk if you have to buddy-breathe than you have by simply donating the primary. With the bungeed backup setup, you know precisely where the backup reg is -- it can't be anywhere else -- and you can access it, as DAA said, even without hands if it is properly adjusted.

As far as when you are likely to deal with an OOA diver . . . The only way one of my regular buddies is going to be out of gas is a blocked dip tube. But I DO travel, and I DO get off boats with groups of people I know essentially nothing about (although they are not my buddies) and there is a non-zero probability that one of them is not religiously checking their gas, and a far higher likelihood that NONE of them has had any training in gas management.

My only issue here is the only times that I've found that thing I need badly to be non-functional is when it had been recently checked and was badly needed at that instant. I think that's one of Murphy's Laws.

These are maintenance and pre-dive check issues. You could also test your octopus when you are familiarizing your buddy with your alternate air setup. The, necklace second stages don't fail argument, I think dodges the question

I don't use a necklace aux, but I think the argument that they do not tend to fail is sound. They do not get dragged in the mud and if they freeflow, you know it right away.

 

[InTheDrink]

Here's hoping you never have a Secondary failure!

I'm just in from a long day/evening of client schmoozing so I may not make much sense. Plus ca change etc.

I think DCBC that you're changing the parameters of the argument. In most OOG situations we are looking at an SPF (single point of failure). In my profession, this will deal with most situations (we're looking at the 99.9+% here). To ensure that you can definitely deal with a double point of failure adds a lot of cost for value that you will rarely come to see.

I don't see your approach to OOG any much more better than the primary donation one. So I would view them both as decent solutions for single points of failure, but NEITHER very good for two or more points of failure.

In the single point of failure mode (and this has nothing to do with escalation, at this point) I cannot see any real drawbacks from primary donation and a necklaced backup. I can however see several significant parts that are less than ideal in the 'traditional' octo approach, including (but not limited to) the risk of that double point of failure happening (cos octo is in a more unknown state').

Anyhow, bed time.

J

 

[InTheDrink]

The, necklace second stages don't fail argument, I think dodges the question

Except in the practical application of it?

In the real world it is less likely to fail simply because of its position and prominence and significance to the primary diver. Just thoughts...

J

 

[InTheDrink]

No, BSAC allows teaching of primary donation, but not primary take. They're different concepts as at higher levels of training you're expected to have it together enough to ask for air rather than snatch it if you run out. That is the difference.

Hmmm.

I equate donation with controlled.
I equate take with panicked.

Whilst well trained divers might cluster around the first, I'd certainly never think that panic is the exclusive preserve of the inexperienced or untrained.

J