Predator air integration?

[DA Aquamaster]

The failure point is the AI, not the computer. We dive with computers because they give us an advantage. We dive with SPG, depth gauges and simple bottom timers because they're simple tools that work if there's an issue with the computer. A computer on my wrist fails and poses no threat to my well being. A transmitter gets knocked off my first stage and I have an open high pressure port releasing gas - now I have an issue.

Think, breathe, then speak.

Agreed.

We did a dive to Hendley's Castle and the instructor we were with was old school, and old enough to recall the pre-computer, pre-accellerated deco days when that same dive required a few hours of deco rather than 20 minutes.

When you look at it that way, technical divers are very open to change and promote that change They after all are the reason everyone dives nitrox now at all as technical divers were using it when it was considered voodoo gas by all of the recreational scuba agencies and authorities.

What technical divers do not support are new gee whiz gadgets just for the sake of having new gee whiz gadgets. If you can show where AI will significantly improve the capability of technical diving without adding undue risk or needless complexity, technical divers will beat a path to your door. Until then, expect to just get beat.

 

[Shftrdog]

Air integration is really nice, I dive with the Oceanic 3.0 and love it. If you go of the bacis of a failure point then why dive at all. The Oring in a tank can fail the yoke oring can fail, all of the orings on the 1st stage can fail. It is not unsafe at all, you have the same chance of the oring on the transmitter failing as you do on your SPG. An I see more SPGs not working right, I have never seen a transmitter fail. We had a group in Cozumel diving and two of the sets the SPG didnt work. No matter how much you would breath down the tank it wouldnt go off of 3000 PSI even when you unhooked it from the tank. Saying it is a failure point is crazy, everything in diving has failure point but yet we still dive. There are nothing wrong with air integration on computers. If you go off of the fairue point then why are you diving with a computer at all bc it can fail, why arnt you diving with tables, computers can fail.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I can see how fixed it for ya can sound condescending... I didn't intend it that way. It's a pretty common statement to make on the Internet and the wink smiley should have been a clue that it was intended to be good natured. I dont see how else being told to read a book can be taken other than "I am right, everyone else is wrong, educate yourself with this book" could be taken though. I'm going to start a thread and let people vote on if they use AI on tech dives, I think the thinking is changing.

I did not take it as condescending. As an author who tries hard to say exactly what I mean in print I took offense to it. I have an editor. I compensate her to edit my writing because I trust her to act in my best interests knowing me and what I want to say. I would rather have my posts here on SB removed rather than edited or "fixed" without my permission. Ask the mods who have had to deal with me.

As for the reference to Gary's book it was to illustrate the principles that have been guiding this area for quite a long time. Some choose not to refer to it as Hogarthian. I do myself, but other's do not so it is not a universally accepted term.

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[Shftrdog]

NAUI was the ones that supported nitrox they almost got banned from DEMA because of it

 

[Liftman]

I regretfully apoligize, I should have known the can of worms I was opening when I started this thread.

Yet again it boils down to closed minded superiority. All the same risk scenarios are there with a conventional set up even if your diving 50 tanks with spg and such. But it's what you know and it's what is accepted and the norm.

So again when I say closed minded, and superior, and fear mongering ( yes it happens, lets take this example, breaking a transmitter on a rock, if you manage to break a transmitter on a rock I'd be worried about a lot more than just that, I garuntee if you hit something that hard I'd be more concerned about what else broke). And that same stereotype should be readily applied to your SPG. But it never is. Just saying.

You're right I have no right to tell you how to dive and what to dive with.
Also correct, I opened this can of worms. If I thought for a second that there wouldn't be anyone to disagree with AI I wouldn't have posted the option in the poll.
Again correct, certain criteria make it impossible for AI, 50 bottles of gas staged across a mile ( scarcasm and truth again)

But I am in no way dismissing issues, they are just a dead horse. My Apple product doesn't support flash!!


Like I said, and I'll say it until I'm blue in the face closed minded. PLEASE take your computers and smash them and burn the manuals because if you actually listen to your own logic there is really no place for them. It makes you complacent and not need to be 100% when you plan your dives. They are just a expensive piece of equipment that has no place, and that money could have been spent on diving. Just give me a few watches and SPGs and a depth gauges.

Really, that's what for the most part the argument against AI sounds like, and it's just plain old.

And like I said I'm sorry to be the one to say it but immature and maybe even snobbish should be thrown in, when faith in a company is lost because they broaden their available products and "that" doesn't go with their business model or the type of customers they sell to. Wow Bugatti is owned by Volkswagen? Well I just can't believe it, such a amazing car made by some cookie cutter low end manufacturer. I just can't put my faith in Bugatti anymore, sellouts, I won't buy one of those again.

I see where some are coming from and how AI is in no way an option, and I get it and accept it, but for the most part it is the same argument over and over. And the argument just keeps getting shoved down everyone's throat (the fear mongering). The argument has run its course let's not keep repeating it, and open eyes to new possibilities. I could just imaging all the old timers just ruining our parade if they were on here and the lbasting we'd get just for using/having dive computers.

Times are a changing people don't be so closed minded, cautious, but not closed. AI shouldn't sell short the need for knowing and understanding how to plan your dive and being able to do it and practicing it without relying on AI or computer algorithms. But it's here, and I'd put good money on the fact that it's going to stay so open your minds to it. Is it the end all be all? NO it's not, but for a larger share of the market than you'd like to recognize it will work with the proper training. And yes those generic algorythms while annoying to many will keep many more who (as is stated often) shouldn't be in the water, safer. So why shouldn't a company like Shearwater who caters to the more advanced include it for those that would like it so they could have a piece of the proverbial cake too?

And no I'm not damning them and throwing them to the wolves if they don't do it, but I'd love to have one if they made it.

Again I apologize, I should have known what this thread was going to turn into when I started it. I'm just sick and tired of the same arguments being played out again and again by those who feel the need to put titles by the type of diver they are and everyone else is inferior and since they don't feel the need it is a bad idea for all. To that, again I say take your own logic and smash your computers.

 

[616fun]

Liftman,

Can you update your profile to show your dive experience? Seems to me that you have big opinions without any information about how much training or experience you have.

 

[BabyDuck]

So again when I say closed minded, and superior, and fear mongering ( yes it happens, lets take this example, breaking a transmitter on a rock, if you manage to break a transmitter on a rock I'd be worried about a lot more than just that, I garuntee if you hit something that hard I'd be more concerned about what else broke). And that same stereotype should be readily applied to your SPG. But it never is. Just saying.

have you hit the cave wall or ceiling while scootering? let me tell you, you whack it good. not on purpose, definitely not *trying* to do damage to the cave or your equipment or you, but let me show you the grooves in my sidemount helmet. it would definitely take off a transmitter if hit just right.

how is that 'fear-mongering'? it is my truth. feel free to preach your own, but most tech divers aren't gonna wave their hands joyfully and shout 'amen'.

 

[mathauck0814]

Can you update your profile to show your dive experience? Seems to me that you have big opinions without any information about how much training or experience you have.

He lists his certifying agency as SSI, so probably safe to assume he's not got any technical training.

have you hit the cave wall or ceiling while scootering? let me tell you, you whack it good. not on purpose, definitely not *trying* to do damage to the cave or your equipment or you, but let me show you the grooves in my sidemount helmet. it would definitely take off a transmitter if hit just right.

how is that 'fear-mongering'? it is my truth. feel free to preach your own, but most tech divers aren't gonna wave their hands joyfully and shout 'amen'.

Again, unlikely that he's ever been inside of a cave or a real wreck (that wasn't stripped out and set nicely upright on the bottom for divers to play on).

To the OP: Divers who push the limits do so cautiously. Where there's a problem to be solved, technology is incorporated where it can be to increase the odds of getting us home more safely. Your "wave of the future" has been weighed and measured. It doesn't solve a problem and creates an unnecessary risk. Of course there are failure points all over a divers' kit. The goal is to minimize them, not to add more. I'll continue to dive with equipment that works and minimizes failure points in a way to achieve what I personally deem, "acceptable risk".

No one is attacking you, acting superior to you or fear mongering. You started this thread to ask if people wanted this functionality on their computers. Shearwater has come out and publicly stated who their target audience is. That audience is giving you its opinion. As such, I wouldn't expect to see AI functionality implemented on a Shearwater product. There are lots of alternatives for divers who feel that functionality is a priority for them.

I don't work for the company and I've only had limited interactions with those who do, so clearly those statements are my opinions and mine alone.

 

[Liftman]

Like I said and you basically confirmed, if you manage to break it I'd be more concerned with what else I broke and the dive would be over. Seems to be an echo, open your mind, if you broke the transmitter, wouldn't it stand to reason that you'd be just as likely to rip a hose, or even just as you have to hit the transmitter just right to do it, but break the hose right off the first stage. I'm not saying it would be easy but if we're going down the hypothetical road still, I garantee it could happen. Open mind.

Like I said I agree it is not for everyone. It just kills me everytime I read them, The same ol arguments just don't hold water. You can make the same arguments about all the tried and true equipment.

My diving history or wether I carry a moniker in front of what kind of diver I am carries no weight for trying to rationalize and look at things logically with an open mind and pointing out weakness in the same ol argument. I'll say it again, it won't work with many divers and what type of diving they do. I am with you on that. But its like a game of telephone tag so and so heard or saw something happen to the transmitter they then come in the Internet and everyone's brothers uncles cousins neighbor saw or hey if your lucky you saw one of countless fail. Am I saying it can't happen? Like I've said already i believe it can and will happen. But that is the way the cookie crumbles stuff breaks, malfunctions ect. But it goes back to the "fear mongering", those things fail all the time, they snap off, they this they that. It got mentioned once in this thread but I've personally had and seen many SPGs fail and the dives were scratched. Yup go ahead and add that to the tally of how many bad SPGs you've heard of now and how bad news they are. Get my point?

Look I'm not trying to sell anyone on AI. I was really hoping for a decent conversation about it being put in place with one of the best computers on the market (IMO). How it would work with their software and models and such, That is obviously not going to happen and it's a losing battle to get an open mind.

 

[mathauck0814]

Like I said and you basically confirmed, if you manage to break it I'd be more concerned with what else I broke and the dive would be over. Seems to be an echo, open your mind, if you broke the transmitter, wouldn't it stand to reason that you'd be just as likely to rip a hose, or even just as you have to hit the transmitter just right to do it, but break the hose right off the first stage. I'm not saying it would be easy but if we're going down the hypothetical road still, I garantee it could happen. Open mind.

Like I said I agree it is not for everyone. It just kills me everytime I read them, The same ol arguments just don't hold water. You can make the same arguments about all the tried and true equipment.

My diving history or wether I carry a moniker in front of what kind of diver I am carries no weight for trying to rationalize and look at things logically with an open mind and pointing out weakness in the same ol argument. I'll say it again, it won't work with many divers and what type of diving they do. I am with you on that. But its like a game of telephone tag so and so heard or saw something happen to the transmitter they then come in the Internet and everyone's brothers uncles cousins neighbor saw or hey if your lucky you saw one of countless fail. Am I saying it can't happen? Like I've said already i believe it can and will happen. But that is the way the cookie crumbles stuff breaks, malfunctions ect. But it goes back to the "fear mongering", those things fail all the time, they snap off, they this they that. It got mentioned once in this thread but I've personally had and seen many SPGs fail and the dives were scratched. Yup go ahead and add that to the tally of how many bad SPGs you've heard of now and how bad news they are. Get my point?

Look I'm not trying to sell anyone on AI. I was really hoping for a decent conversation about it being put in place with one of the best computers on the market (IMO). How it would work with their software and models and such, That is obviously not going to happen and it's a losing battle to get an open mind.

The translated/condensed version: The only way you can post on this thread with an open mind absent of fear mongering is to agree with the OP and vote for AI on your Shearwater.