Practicing CESA & ditch and don?

[Soggy]

Whatever underwater science they need to perform. Ranges from fishwatching in Long Island Sound to servicing physical oceanography instruments in the South Atlantic to collecting jellies alive in the Arctic Ocean to collecting core samples off Krakatoa.

How is that more trying than any technical dive?

I guess it really doesn't matter. You teach what you have to/choose to teach. My opinion on it really doesn't mean anything.

 

[Thalassamania]

I didn't say that the diving was any more trying. But frankly, with the exception of the stuff that Rich Pyle does and some archeology work I find most technical dives rather a bore.

 

[Soggy]

With all due respect, you do not have to perform at the level that these folks do

Sounds like you are saying it is inherently more difficult, to me.

I didn't say that the diving was any more trying. But frankly, with the exception of the stuff that Rich Pyle does and some archeology work I find most technical dives rather a bore.

It's your perrogative to find wreck dives with scooters, penetration, decompression, low visibility, mixed gases, artifact recovery, etc 'a bore' but I hardly would consider it less difficult than what you are describing. My point being, I do have to perform at the same level as your people in order to survive. So far, the exercises you have described sound like wax on, wax off to me...or at the very least machoism.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I didn't say that the diving was any more trying. But frankly, with the exception of the stuff that Rich Pyle does and some archeology work I find most technical dives rather a bore.

Most sport dives mostly amount to going down swimming around a bit and going back up. The "technical" dives might involve swimming in deeper circles or doing it in an overhead environment but other than that it's all the same.

The sad truth is that now that I don't have an objective beyond sight seeing, I don't dive anywhere near as much as I used to. When I was teaching, being taught, doing dives to build specific experience to get ready for something, working on a survey or whatever, I had a reason to dive. I still like to be underwater sometimes just for the sake of being underwater but it seems that it isn't important enough to spend much money or go very far out of my way. Diving makes a better means to an end than it does an end. A delux caribbean dive vacation would keep me entertained for about half a day. After that I'd rather be back in my shop where I could get something accomplished. I dearly miss the Florida caves but not enough to close up the house, pack all the gear and drive 15 hours. It's not like I haven't seen them before.

Anything can get boring.

 

[Cacia]

Most of the tech divers I see are not in very good shape---I know they are supposed to be, but the reality of the ones I have seen is that they aren't very physical. I'm sure I haven't seen enough to generalize, but it's hard not to.

The drills you are talking about are pretty physical.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

You know, previously in this thread I gave a generic 'yes,' but I really believe that separate answers are more to my liking:

CESA: I don't think doing it once, in the pool, from 10' or whatever, is sufficient, but I also don't think it's something to practice regularly. The main reason I think that it should be done by new divers is as a confidence/comfort reinforcement. I believe that the #1 killer in diving is panic, and the vaccine is confidence. If a diver knows that he can do a CESA from any depth (and I mean really knows, not just has been told and tried it once in a shallow pool) that would go a long way in avoiding panic when faced with a truly dire situation. Not that I'm saying everyone needs to do a CESA from 130', but maybe from 30'? I'm not sure, and will get more experience in the area myself before I make up my mind, but I think it needs to be deep enough for the student to experience the extended exhale of expanding gas. 10' doesn't do that. Swimming along the bottom and exhaling doesn't do that. Also, personally, I'm thinking of becoming a part-time instructor in a couple of years or so, and when someone asks what it's like to do a CESA from 300', I want to be able to tell them, "Well, I have done it from XX', and ..."

I think this is what the previous poster (sorry, I'm too lazy to look up the post to give proper credit) was calling 'basic watermanship.'

Now, about the ditchNdon, that is a skill I do think is worth regular practice (not every dive, obviously, but maybe a couple times a year, and certainly with each gear configuration). It would add to the confidence level as mentioned above, but would also be valuable practice for entanglements and other gear issues. In addition to the entanglement story I posted earlier, I wouldn't hesitate to de-kit (to borrow a phrase from some of the folks with whom we share a language) for minor equipment issues. For instance, if I have a nagging feeling something is wrong (you know, the 'can't put my finger on it, but...' kind of feeling), and my buddy can't find anything wrong, I might just take the whole thing off and give it a good once-over myself rather than just abort the dive. Even if I don't find a problem, I will probably feel better having looked. And yes, I should be able to do this mid-column, and fairly quickly.

 

[SharkDiver36]

You should practice all of the skills whenever you can, it's what makes things simple in a crisis.

Any diver that dives on wrecks, epsecially where there are fisherman or fishing vessels, should practice Ditch/don. Yes prevention is important, being aware of your surroundings but when push comes to shove, your confidence in your skills is what will keep you calm, relaxed and thinking clearly in an emergency.

The only reason you are good at clearing your mask is because you end up doing it nearly every dive. Having a little water in your mask isn't a big deal because it happens and you're used to dealing with it and in the event it gets knocked off it's still no big deal because you know you can clear it.

Your ESA is best done in a pool or in an enviroment where it can safely be done. Dutch Springs in the Northeast is a great place to practice that. There are platforms at 25' and lines to grab in case you need to.

Practice builds confidence and your confidence in your skills will keep you calm in a crisis. The skills you learn in Basic are taught for a reason; whether you think you need them or not, you do and will most likely need them at some point on a dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Most of the tech divers I see are not in very good shape---I know they are supposed to be, but the reality of the ones I have seen is that they aren't very physical. I'm sure I haven't seen enough to generalize, but it's hard not to.

The drills you are talking about are pretty physical.

I would actually accept that as a generalization. However, the population of divers includes lots of fat middle aged couch potatos. Doing any amount of real diving takes real money and some people just don't get there until later in life. Where do you think shops recruit their technical diving students from?

Still, the technical courses of most technical agencies include some fairly significant watermenship and stamina tests. Whether or not instructors are administering these tests in another thing though.

all that said, there are lots of people that are in pretty good shape without looking very impressive so looks can be deceiving.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I would actually accept that as a generalization. However, ... all that said, there are lots of people that are in pretty good shape without looking very impressive so looks can be deceiving.

Way back in my Boy Scout days (a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away) one of our Assistant Scoutmasters was a jolly round fellow who drove a Hostess truck for a living. You couldn't keep up with him in the water, though!

Probably had something to do with the fact that he was a former Navy SEAL, but I'm not sure

 

[Thalassamania]

Sounds like you are saying it is inherently more difficult, to me.

How it sounds to you is your business.

It's your perrogative to find wreck dives with scooters, penetration, decompression, low visibility, mixed gases, artifact recovery, etc 'a bore' but I hardly would consider it less difficult than what you are describing.

• Scooters are fun, but if you really need scooter capability Deep Flight does it better.
• Wreck Penetration - easy if really done right (e.g., a team member at every turn tending your hose). I made a few dives in Wakulla, but don’t do any cave diving at this point, it’s a jinx kind of thing. Parker Turner offered to take me under his wing, we scheduled a first go and he died. The same thing happened with Sheck. Jeff Bozanic offered and I refused to schedule with him based on past bad luck, Jeff's wife appreciated that.
• Decompression – truly boring, except when done in the bunkroom of a habitat, anyway a Newt Suit is a better approach in most cases.
• Low visibility – can make the job more interesting but it’s the job not the vis.
• Mixed gases – big wuff, breath in/breath out … gee do I have the right regulator in my mouth ... I mean gas swaps are soooooo hard, even after you've practiced them several hundred times.
• Artifact recovery – don’t believe in it, leave it the archeologists.

All in all … a bore. It’s that task that makes it interesting and accomplishing the task a challenging environment more so, but I really don’t care what type of gas bubbles I blow, that’s all basically the same.

Most sport dives mostly amount to going down swimming around a bit and going back up. The "technical" dives might involve swimming in deeper circles or doing it in an overhead environment but other than that it's all the same.

The sad truth is that now that I don't have an objective beyond sight seeing … Anything can get boring.

That’s the truth.

My point being, I do have to perform at the same level as your people in order to survive.

Maybe you do, maybe you don’t I don’t know, it’s not my problem. My responsibility is the institution to assure it that the divers who are operating under its auspices do so with minimal risk to the institution’s interests. These divers need to be able to observe, collect, document and integrate while performing all their skills on virtually automatic pilot. If you do that, great.

So far, the exercises you have described sound like wax on, wax off to me...or at the very least machoism.

If you call it “wax on, wax off” I take that as a complement, that’s the intent and it works. But it’s far from macho, there’s no place for macho in either today’s scientific institutions or risk management environment.

I seem to detect an undercurrent in your posts that you think we’re dilettantes who don’t recognize that you (and others) are every bit as good (or better) as (than) we are. But please, don’t play the farm boy in Seven Samurai with me. That is far from the case, we have worked with all sorts of people all over the world on all sort of projects, some are great and some are, well … let’s just say, “not as good as others.” The real issue is do you understand that no one gives a damn if you can dive, that’s just the bus to work … what can you do once you get there? Oh … and by the way … can I really trust you to stay alive and keep your buddy alive on the way to work and on the way home? Because if I, or someone very much like me, can’t, then you don’t get to play.

Most of the tech divers I see are not in very good shape---I know they are supposed to be, but the reality of the ones I have seen is that they aren't very physical. I'm sure I haven't seen enough to generalize, but it's hard not to.

The drills you are talking about are pretty physical.

Not really, I’m in my mid 50s and carry about 15 kilos more that I should. There are two ways to do these exercises, brain or brawn, we favor the former.

Practice builds confidence and your confidence in your skills will keep you calm in a crisis.

Right on, right on, right on!