Pool session gone awry...

[jepuskar]

What business do swim tests have in diving? What does it prove? I am biased because I am a crappy swimmer yet I am extremely comfortable in the water, especially with Scuba gear on.

In my eyes it doesn't prove squat. You want to talk about stamina, or being in shape...well, I'm in shape yet can't swim very good because I was never taught and never bothered to learn. I passed my 400yd swim for my DM training by floating on my back and pushing off of the pool walls as hard as possible....doesn't say anything about my diving skill or my stamina skill.

So tell me, what does swimming have to do with diving?

 

[mweitz]

I recently read an article (in July sometime) that stated that statistically both divers will die using the BB method in an emergency. I'll see if I can find the magazine and article and if they listed any references.

BTW, how is it you would get into a BB situation instead of breathing off your buddies secondary?

Mark

 

[jepuskar]

Mark,

Normally you wouldn't but say your buddies secondary isn't functioning. Then what do you do?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I recently read an article (in July sometime) that stated that statistically both divers will die using the BB method in an emergency. I'll see if I can find the magazine and article and if they listed any references.

Statistically, most divers aren't very good and stand a good chance of suffering an unfavorable outcome if anything at all goes wrong, I think.

However, if two divers are practiced at BB there isn't any reason for any one to die.

Don't believe what you read in stupid magazines especially stupid diving magazines.

Buddy breathing is a simple skill that all divers should learn.

BTW, how is it you would get into a BB situation instead of breathing off your buddies secondary?

Mark

In addition to what jepuskar pointed out, I see so many divers with their alternate dangling loose. I doubt if they could find it and donate it fast enough to do any one much good. In such a case both divers are liable to end up wrestling (sharing) the one reg. Either way you might as well just get used to it before the fire drill.

BB isn't being eliminated from training because you won't ever need it. It's because you probably won't need it and the class needs to be kept short. Skills like BB are harder if you don't have good buoyancy control and they don't teach that much either.

If for some reason you were to die because you couldn't buddy breath you would be one of only 100 or less anual fatalities and as an industry we've already decided that 100 is acceptable...so it's cool.

Think about it? What sense does it make to choose a CESA than buddy breath? Well I guess it makes sense if you don't know how to BB.

 

[Walter]

Very interesting!

What skills had you learned and how much time had you completed in the water at the time of the incident?

Some people are misinformed about a few things.

First, buddy breathing is not difficult nor is it dangerous. It was rarely taught properly nor was it practiced regularly. Rather than fix the problem, the skill was dropped. Not that it mattered because fear of AIDS cause most (all?) agencies to drop it as a required skill.

Second, PADI requires either a 200 yd swim ora 300 yd snorkel. Since you can avoid the swim by doing the snorkel, it is not a requirement. I don't know of any other agency that has eliminated the swimming requirement.

 

[tstiemerling]

My 2c worth:

this scenario (the panicked bolt to the surface) is something you see regularly in the pool as an instructor. It generally follows aspiration of water after either trying to breathe from an upside down or un-purged regulator, or inhaling water through the nose while mask clearing. Obviously the instinctive reaction is to try and reach the surface to breathe. This is something that has to be definitely controlled, otherwise it could be a liability if it happens on an OW dive as you suggested. This is one reason I always grab hold of my student tightly in the OW checkout when I feel there is a possibility of a bolt. I always try and emphasize that all problems underwater should be solved underwater where possible. Had your husband been more in control of his reactions, he could probably simply have swapped back to his old regulator or taken your primary, but then breaking out of that instinctive reaction takes practice. I certainly would talk to him more about this incident, and make sure he is aware of the possible consequences of bolting from depth. Changing your octopus to one that does not have and up/down is also an option (although I dont like most of the low profile octos myself). More practice is also good. Note that PADI states that an instructor or certified assistant must be supervising in the pool with all students.

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

BTW, how is it you would get into a BB situation instead of breathing off your buddies secondary?

Mark

It happened to me.

I was playing the rescue victim and when my "rescuer" went to lift me (i was face down on the bottom playing dead) he knocked my reg out of my mouth. This was in 1986 or so. I didn't have much experience at the time and my gear wasn't sorted out..... my octopus was dangling somewhere behind me and at this point so was my primary. Furthermore, he had me slung over his back (incorrectly) with a firm grip on my arms. I thought I could ride out the ascent because most people do the lift way too fast but he was taking his time and at some point I realised I wasn't going to make it. So to make a long story short I struggled free and snatched his reg out of his mouth becuase it was the only 1 of the 4 we were carrying that I could find in a big hurry. Once I had it we started to buddy-breathe and finished the ascent like that.

R..

 

[Mako Mark]

It's unbelievable for building familiarity and comfort with equipment.

(Note to self: Must practice this just in case I am ever locked in a room and have to assemble my equipment in complete darkness in an emergency)

 

[Mako Mark]

Going by PADIs warped logic in that case better use CESA as a first choice as someone could endanger another diver going for an octopus or ripping a main reg out of the mouth.

The dumbing down of diving and liability culture emerging is really really getting to me.

However, if two divers are practiced at BB there isn't any reason for any one to die.

.....snip.....

Think about it? What sense does it make to choose a CESA than buddy breath? Well I guess it makes sense if you don't know how to BB.

Mike, I was watching the little diatribe between Diver0001 and string and was going to quote string untill you brought the idea up again, and string is talking through a hole in his wetsuit.




Here is the scenario.

two divers initiate buddy breathing at 80-100 ft and start ascending. things are stressful, unpracticed, but after initial panicy squabbling, a sort of rhythm is achieved.

Once the divers reach about 20 ft the OOA diver sees the surface within reach for the first time and the overwhelming urge to not be underwater anymore rises into panick. He takes a final large breath and lunges for the surface, effectively changing the bb ascent into a rapid CESA.

Thus the OOA diver surfaces in a panic is rescued and dragged back to the boat. After he calms down a few minutes later the dm/crew tries to determine wat happened.

"we were bb ascending, I remember getting close to the surface, then that is all I remember"

A search is initiated for the rescuer, he is found dead on the bottom either immediately or days later if there is a current.

Conclusion as to what happened.

In the moment that the BB ascent fails, the panicing diver takes the last breath, throws the reg away, kicks the rescuer in the face, stomps on his head on the way past and leaves him in 20 ft of water with no reg, dazed or unconcious and dying in seconds.

How do I know this? Because this is how a friend of mine died.

How did I figure out what happened in his last moments; because I saw the same scenario unfold before my very eyes years later. In that case I was fortunate enough to be able to assist the rescuer to the surface and prevent tragedy.

That is why I dont teach buddy breathing, and I teach my instructors not to teach buddy breathing. I teach them dont go diving without an AAS or a diver that doesnt.

 

[jepuskar]

This is also one of the main reasons why divers who choose to dive with a long hose as their primary, like myself, do so. It assures that the diver most in need of air will receive it, from the regulator I was just breathing off of.