Pool session gone awry...

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, I was watching the little diatribe between Diver0001 and string and was going to quote string untill you brought the idea up again, and string is talking through a hole in his wetsuit.




Here is the scenario.

two divers initiate buddy breathing at 80-100 ft and start ascending. things are stressful, unpracticed, but after initial panicy squabbling, a sort of rhythm is achieved.

Once the divers reach about 20 ft the OOA diver sees the surface within reach for the first time and the overwhelming urge to not be underwater anymore rises into panick. He takes a final large breath and lunges for the surface, effectively changing the bb ascent into a rapid CESA.

Thus the OOA diver surfaces in a panic is rescued and dragged back to the boat. After he calms down a few minutes later the dm/crew tries to determine wat happened.

"we were bb ascending, I remember getting close to the surface, then that is all I remember"

A search is initiated for the rescuer, he is found dead on the bottom either immediately or days later if there is a current.

Conclusion as to what happened.

In the moment that the BB ascent fails, the panicing diver takes the last breath, throws the reg away, kicks the rescuer in the face, stomps on his head on the way past and leaves him in 20 ft of water with no reg, dazed or unconcious and dying in seconds.

How do I know this? Because this is how a friend of mine died.

How did I figure out what happened in his last moments; because I saw the same scenario unfold before my very eyes years later. In that case I was fortunate enough to be able to assist the rescuer to the surface and prevent tragedy.

That is why I dont teach buddy breathing, and I teach my instructors not to teach buddy breathing. I teach them dont go diving without an AAS or a diver that doesnt.

It sounds like the cause of death was being knocked out by a kick to the head. What's to stop this from happening an a shared air ascent which you do teach?

I've had to bring up several divers in all out panic and I got all beat up doing it. The las time we both finished the ascent without regs in our mouth because she knocked them all out and I didn't have a hand free to pop one in my mouth with.

The divers that are being ut out seem to panic pretty easy. It doesn't matter whether they're sharing air, managing a free flow or buddy breathing.

I really don't think the problem is with the buddy breathing it's with the other lacking skills. If they weren't so lacking they wouldn't panic so easy.

long winded way of saying that I think the diver in your example was going to panic no matter what.

 

[Xanthro]

A difference in the panic of Buddy breathing and octo breathing, is the rescurer in the latter has a reg in his mouth at all times. The panicked dive would have to knock it out.

In BB, when the person bolts, it's going to be out of the rescurer's mouth 100% of the time.

Getting whacked hard in the head with a reg in your mouth is one thing, not having the reg is another.

Buddy breathing is prefectly safe with two calm divers, but how would two calm and responsible divers ever really get into a situation where they'd need to do this? Plus, if they are that calm, there isn't much practice needed. Two breaths, reg out to other person, wait two breaths, take reg, take two breaths, repeat until at the top. It's really not much different that replacing your reg.

Sad part is, those who could pull off a safe BB are the ones who would need the practice the least.

Xanthro

 

[Mako Mark]

This is also one of the main reasons why divers who choose to dive with a long hose as their primary, like myself, do so. It assures that the diver most in need of air will receive it, from the regulator I was just breathing off of.

the primary reason for donating the mouthpiece you are breathing from as in the hogarthian configuration it to avoid recieving a hot mix (gas that is deeper than its Maximum operating depth)

If you are not using mixed gas, it could be argued that it doesnt matter where the AAS is, in your mouth or clipped up somehow.

 

[Mako Mark]

long winded way of saying that I think the diver in your example was going to panic no matter what.

You could be right, but I think that if the diver has a continious supply of air rather than the added stress of sharing air from one mouth piece, that this may just give them the edge to hold on.

I too have brought up my fair share of panicing divers, and you do really have to hold onto them hard. I have found that a hand on the back of the neck that keeps the head from looking up to the surface, reduces the likelyhood of bolting. This kind of agrees with the scenario I posted too. It is the sight of the goal of the surface that is too much of a temptation and they become overcome with the desire to be there.

Xanthro has some good points tho.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A difference in the panic of Buddy breathing and octo breathing, is the rescurer in the latter has a reg in his mouth at all times. The panicked dive would have to knock it out.

In BB, when the person bolts, it's going to be out of the rescurer's mouth 100% of the time.

Only 50% of the time. If he bolts when the rescuer has he reg then the rescuer might not loose it. But...so what? You can knock my reg out all you want. It won't hurt me.

Getting whacked hard in the head with a reg in your mouth is one thing, not having the reg is another.

Have you ever been knocked silly? You may not keep the reg in your mouth anyway.

Buddy breathing is prefectly safe with two calm divers, but how would two calm and responsible divers ever really get into a situation where they'd need to do this? Plus, if they are that calm, there isn't much practice needed. Two breaths, reg out to other person, wait two breaths, take reg, take two breaths, repeat until at the top. It's really not much different that replacing your reg.

Sad part is, those who could pull off a safe BB are the ones who would need the practice the least.

Xanthro

Nothing is safe with a paniced diver.

 

[Cudabait]

Sorry for the late post. Lot of good advise already. You presented the octo wrong. He just took it like he has been trained, to a very limited degree. Best lesson learned here is how fast something can go wrong. Also he may have been frightened by the incident. Keep practicing, even with the regs in your living room.

Regards,

 

[MikeFerrara]

You could be right, but I think that if the diver has a continious supply of air rather than the added stress of sharing air from one mouth piece, that this may just give them the edge to hold on.

I too have brought up my fair share of panicing divers, and you do really have to hold onto them hard. I have found that a hand on the back of the neck that keeps the head from looking up to the surface, reduces the likelyhood of bolting. This kind of agrees with the scenario I posted too. It is the sight of the goal of the surface that is too much of a temptation and they become overcome with the desire to be there.

Xanthro has some good points tho.

Maybe we should carry hypos full of tranqualizer. there just isn't anything that works well with a paniced diver.

the trick is to be comfortable enough with problem management skills to be able to manage the problem without any one panicing. Once some one panics the odds of a good ending just went way down.

 

[Xanthro]

Maybe we should carry hypos full of tranqualizer. there just isn't anything that works well with a paniced diver.

the trick is to be comfortable enough with problem management skills to be able to manage the problem without any one panicing. Once some one panics the odds of a good ending just went way down.

Really, the only thing that scares me about being underwater, is the possibility of a panicked diver. I've had the snot kicked out of me by swimmers, I can only imagine how much worse someone UNDER the water would be.

Xanthro

 

[MikeFerrara]

Really, the only thing that scares me about being underwater, is the possibility of a panicked diver. I've had the snot kicked out of me by swimmers, I can only imagine how much worse someone UNDER the water would be.

Xanthro

It's something that a person has to see to believe. If you inagin it as bad as you can it won't be close.

When a person panics (active panic) the become 100% animal. There isn't any humanity in them at all anymore. A paniced diver fighting for the surface will only understand SURFACE. I don't know how else to explain it. They won't recognize or think of anything else.

If you have to make an ascent or two holding on to a creature like this and looking into their inhuman eyes you will likely come away from it with a whole different outlook on diving and dive training. At least that's what it did to me.

 

[Xanthro]

It's something that a person has to see to believe. If you inagin it as bad as you can it won't be close.

When a person panics (active panic) the become 100% animal. There isn't any humanity in them at all anymore. A paniced diver fighting for the surface will only understand SURFACE. I don't know how else to explain it. They won't recognize or think of anything else.

If you have to make an ascent or two holding on to a creature like this and looking into their inhuman eyes you will likely come away from it with a whole different outlook on diving and dive training. At least that's what it did to me.

I've had to rescue swimmers, and some seemed very intent on beating me to death. I know what you mean about that inhuman stare, which is why a panicked diver would bother me.

At least at the surface, I knew they couldn't drown me, I could always hold my breath longer than they could, but underwater, who knows.

It's that lashing out animial "I'm dying and taking you with me" attitude that scares me.

I quit volunteering as a lifeguard after someone in POOL water he could stand up in started beating me with the float I gave him. He kept smacking everyone around him, little kids, me. Finally, I had to submerge and tackle the guy and fight him out of the water. That was enough, I wanted to let him drown in 4 feet of water.

Someone like that in the ocean is just down right creepy.

Xanthro