Pony set ups

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IMO, if you think you need a "pony". you don,t, you need doubles.
 
Just to expand on Ferrera's last post:

If you think you need a pony (redundant backgas supply :wink:), then maybe you really need a better buddy, a better plan, and/or a better gas management scheme.

Respectfully submitted (of course :wink: :D),

Mike
 
Just courious, amoung the "don't need more air then you need. nothing well maintained breaks down" crowd. Do you use a pony.. doubles? And if the dive plan is so well thought out, then what's the problem with the extra conservistism.

Kaffphine- "For doubles how much weight are we taking about (out of the water), say for AL80's and then for stl100's. "
 
Originally posted by Kaffphine

Kaffphine- "For doubles how much weight are we taking about (out of the water), say for AL80's and then for stl100's. "

My PST LP104 doubles (when full) with manifold and bands and SS backplate weigh in the neighborhood of 116 lbs. (that's just math though, I've never accually put them on a scale...)
 
Kaffphine,
There isn’t anything wrong with conservatism. But, is adding a pony useful conservatism.
IMO, in general, the answer is no. Many times a pony is used as a crutch by people who are doing dives that they shouldn’t be doing. Redundant equipment does no good without the extra training, experience and skill. Early in my dive career, after a couple of deepish dives, I was thinking I should have a pony bottle. Additional training and experience convinced me that I should have skipped those dives. Good planning, polished skills and appropriate equipment all in one package manage and minimize risk. Just strapping on a pony bottle probably accomplishes little other than giving one a false sense of security.
 
Kaffphine,

Just courious, amoung the "don't need more air then you need. nothing well maintained breaks down" crowd. Do you use a pony.. doubles? And if the dive plan is so well thought out, then what's the problem with the extra conservistism.

Stuff breaks down all the time.. which is why every technical diver fiercely advocates redundancy. Redundancy is wonderful and necessary. Conservatism is wonderful and necessary. Buddies, the rule of thirds, backup lights, and dual-post gas delivery systems are all a requirement for good diving. No one ever, ever said that a good dive plan prevents problems: the dive plan doesn't prevent problems, it provides methods to solve them safely. Lights will go out, hoses will burst, mask seals will fail, etc. All technical divers are acutely aware of these failure modes. You'll notice our gear choices and our techniques above and below water are specifically aimed at mitigating those known risks.

So, the operative questions are:

1. "How can I make my equipment redundant?"
2. "How can I make my diving more conservative?"

The answer to 1 is almost universally a good set of doubles and a good set of regs. They're more reliable, simpler, easier, and more cost effective than a pony setup.

Consider, for example, a person tying himself to a car seat with a piece of rope: it will indeed provide some safety benefit in a crash, but it comes bundled with a variety of new problems, like entrapment and difficulty. The proper solution is to use a well-engineered, well-thought-out seatbelt system with accessible releases, tensioners, and inertial locks. This system provides all of the desired goals (safety) without introducing any new problems.

The analogy is easily extended to ponies. The pony DOES solve the problem of providing redundant gas. Unfortunately, though, like the piece of rope around the car seat, it comes bundled with its own host of new problems. It has an additional, third, second stage regulator. It cannot be shared without buddy-breathing. It it difficult to stow properly. It is difficult to deploy easily. It is an entanglement hazard. A good set of doubles provides the desired goal (redundant gas) without introducing any new problems.

You'll find this a very common issue with many divers: they buy some bit of gear to eliminate some perceived risk, without noticing the three new risks the piece of gear itself produces.

The answer to number 2 is somewhat more complex. Proper training, equipment, and well-rehearsed emergency plans reduce inherent risks to very small levels. This in itself is a type of conservatism.

- Warren
 
Originally posted by Rick Murchison
Oh, now I see... y'all call a tank a "pony" when it's a "backup" feigning true redundance and adequate planning. Down here in the hinterlands, a "pony" is any bottle smaller than about 50 CF, regardless of its use.
Rick,

I'm going to have to both agree and disagree with you on this. You're right, pony means small. Anyone who’s graduated high school knows what a “Pony Keg” is. :)

However, PADI blurs the distinction and given that they certify the most divers, there’s a lot being “brought up” with this new definition. PADI’s open water book, in the alternate air source section, states:

“A pony bottle is an alternate air source that does not require the assistance of another diver. A pony bottle is a small scuba tank normally strapped alongside your main tank [yikes! - RO], with its own independent regulator.”

I guess my point is that your definition, though proper, is antiquated. Until your post I had never heard the term “pony” to ONLY mean a small cylinder. It has always implied a “bail out bottle.” In fact, the definition has been turned on its head and by being a bail out bottle, there’s an implication that the cylinder is small.

Roak
 
Originally posted by roakey
However, PADI blurs the distinction and given that they certify the most divers, there’s a lot being “brought up” with this new definition.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong." --Voltaire
PADI is not entirely, but is largely, wrong.
What they describe is a bailout bottle, and is one use of a pony bottle. Bailout bottles needn't be smaller than the main gas bottles - e.g. in some CCR's.
"Pony" describes size, not use.
And I also disagree with PADI's use of the term "alternate air source" with reference to a regulator that doesn't give access to either the entire gas supply, or to a supply of at least as much gas as the primary - but that's a nit, and if they want to define an alternate with less capability than the primary then that's within the bounds of acceptable use of the language. Changing the definition of "pony" isn't - and PADI's apparent attempt to run roughshod over the language is ill advised. Using "pony" in this fashion only lends confusion to the discussion - as it has to this thread.
"Bailout bottle" is what they mean and is the term they should use.
Rick
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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