Please suggest BC for new diver.

[Jim Lapenta]

Thank you everybody. Every single one of you have offered valuable advice even though some of it may sound contradictory. That as it may be, all of the points mentioned are exactly the decisions I'm trying to make. So please don't feel like I'm pitting one against another when I ask for clarification between different opinions okay? Nothing I'll ask will be challenges to advice, just honest inquiry.
First off, when I mentioned "back inflation style" it was actually BP/W that I was thinking of and just used the wrong description. I started out with a standard recreational jacket style (Zeagle for myself I think and the Zeagle Zena for my wife) and I enjoyed it just fine but it didn't take long for gear envy and progressively more technical diving (NC wrecks) to prompt me to get a double bladder OMS Delux Harness system. I loved everything about it. Especially the modular aspect. This was also before we had kids so every dollar was discretionary and money wasn't an issue. Now with two teen boys in the house, everything is balanced against collage funding.
Please describe the functional difference between Back Inflation and standard jacket style BCDS. What about the "Hybrid" description that I keep seeing? How does that fit in?
In any case, as much as a good BP/W system can be argued for, I think a more traditional recreational system will be better for him for just the several reasons mentioned here. I know for damn sure my extended deep wreck dive days are over and my boy's first several years of diving will be along side me at 60' or less. He'll be going to school for marine biology so plans on spending his career in the ocean so he can make his own gear choices later on. If he decides in a few years to change gear, he can sell or trade it. If he gets 100 dives out of it, we'll call it a cost of $4-$6 per dive. Not much of a waste.



@tbone1004 Do you feel it is "slightly better" only because of the better achievable horizontal trim at depth that @drrich2 mentions?

I just set up a HOG Total Buoyancy Control System for an 11yr old girl. Her mom is giving it to her for Christmas. I had them in class over the summer. The system is a BPW style rig with a soft plate instead of aluminum or steel and has an adjustable harness. Because she's 11 yrs old and expected to grow. Kids do that.
Right now there is enough webbing strategically stored so that even if she doubles in size, nothing will have to be replaced. If taken proper care of possibly for decades. There's the economic value.
On the personalization side we can, at some point if necessary add a couple weight pockets for 20 bucks or so and give her more options. It did come with two but she is also used to using a MAKO freediving weight belt from class.
Another plus is that even an XS jacket BC was loose on her. This rig is adjusted so that it fits perfectly as it should and with the 1.5 inch crotch strap, will not ride up on her or move around.
On the resale side, as I said, she won't have to. She can change the wing if she wants and change the plate to steel or aluminum and not lose any money on it.
A 3 yr old jacket? Worth maybe 25-30% of what it was bought for. Often less than that.
There is no downside to a BPW or BPW modular style BC. You can also save money initially and have higher resale value down the line.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And a competent instructor will allow a student to train in their own gear and use it as a teaching opportunity to show others a different configuration. As long as the gear is safe and functional, there is no reason other than incompetence and greed for them not to.
I always said if someone showed up with Uncle Bob's Fenzy and mistral double hose with an octo and spg I'd let them use it if they let me dive it first for 20 minutes or so to check it out and become familiar with it.

The "our insurance won't let us train you in your gear" is complete and utter horse crap. They don't want other students seeing anything but what they sell. It's greed plain and simple or incompetence when it comes to a BPW or something they aren't used to seeing.

I can take any rig and get neutral and horizontal in 10 minutes in the pool. I did this with an original double hose and plastic backpack with no BC a couple times when friends who are vintage divers showed up to play around in the pool and let me use their gear. Buddy breathing off a double hose is challenging. For the first breath or two. Then it's easy.

 

[SaltyCracker]

Uncle Bob's Fenzy and mistral double hose with an octo and spg

double hose and plastic backpack with no BC

Thank you for the advice. I looked hard at the Hog systems and liked it. I have decided to go with a Zeagle Express Tech Deluxe. Hopefully I can get it ordered and delivered by Christmas.

Will you please breakdown what you are talking about in the quote I provided? I'm sure it makes sense to better informed people but it all went right over my head. Dumb it down for me.

 

[James79]

Thank you for the advice. I looked hard at the Hog systems and liked it. I have decided to go with a Zeagle Express Tech Deluxe. Hopefully I can get it ordered and delivered by Christmas.

Will you please breakdown what you are talking about in the quote I provided? I'm sure it makes sense to better informed people but it all went right over my head. Dumb it down for me.

A Fenzy is one of the early horse collar style BC's (resembles a modern snorkel vest), and A mistral refers to an early Aqualung Doublehose regulator where all guts of the reg system are in the part that attaches to the tank, and the hose loop is just ambient pressure air coming in from the right and out to the left (my avatar picture I'm using a DA Aquamaster doublehose). Most shops have an aneurism when they see vintage gear..... it really is safe if maintained, but it has different characteristics.

Key point I think Jim was making is that as long as it's safe and functional, there shouldn't be any issue.

The doublehose and plastic backpack comment is referring to how it used to be (and some of us still do). Early days of SCUBA, BCD's hadn't been invented yet, SPG's weren't a thing, and buddy breathing (2 people sharing one reg) was what predated the concept of an Octo. So a simple reg on a tank, with a plastic backpack to hold it on the harness... Get your weighting right, and lungs are all you need for buoyancey control.

@Jim Lapenta , If I stepped on your toes, tell me to shut up!

Respectfully,

James

 

[mcohen1021]

I guess the first choice will be jacket style or back inflation style. Please describe the benefits of each for a new diver and why one would be more suitable for him.

I have owned 2 BCs in 32 years. One was jacket, one back inflate. I will NEVER own a back inflate again. I hate them, they leave you face down on the surface. I never needed the back inflate to be parallel to the ocean's bottom. My 3rd BC is on its maiden voyage Sunday and its a Cressi Travel BC which is a jacket style, weight integrated BC. I can report back on how it did when I am back.

The old back inflate will be used to local scuba in murky lakes when they need me to do work underwater.

 

[waterone]

I have owned 2 BCs in 32 years. One was jacket, one back inflate. I will NEVER own a back inflate again. I hate them, they leave you face down on the surface.

Sounds like you do not have the same gear purchasing addiction that I do. I buy more stuff even when I have no real need for it.

I personally never had any back inflate or backplate setup push me or leave me face down at the surface. This is even when they have been fully inflated and yet still easily staying upright.

On nice days after a dive I will often lounge around on my back for quite some time just enjoying the motion of the waters surface. Might it be possible that it was a setup or product issue?

While I agree that you don't need any particular bcd to get parallel, it is more natural with a back inflate. Then going to a backplate it just isn't as bulky as everything else and at the same time can be extremely customized and grow with you....especially if you do.

 

[mcohen1021]

Sounds like you do not have the same gear purchasing addiction that I do. I buy more stuff even when I have no real need for it.

I personally never had any back inflate or backplate setup push me or leave me face down at the surface. This is even when they have been fully inflated and yet still easily staying upright.

On nice days after a dive I will often lounge around on my back for quite some time just enjoying the motion of the waters surface. Might it be possible that it was a setup or product issue?

While I agree that you don't need any particular bcd to get parallel, it is more natural with a back inflate. Then going to a backplate it just isn't as bulky as everything else and at the same time can be extremely customized and grow with you....especially if you do.

I never had the face down issue with my original 1990 jacket style US Divers Cousteau BC. I made the back inflate Aeris Oceans 5 BC work by using the trim pockets. In fact, AFTER i lost 34# i never used the front weight pockets again, I used 5# in the trim pockets only. But if there isnt any air inflated under my armpits, and its all on your back, I go face down on the surface or like you said I have to lay on my back like I am waiting to be rescued lol

Oh and I don't lake dive anymore unless its working on a waterski course. I did a bit of anchor work about 2 months ago, that was more than enough... so i dont need to upgrade gear much. but i do love my new teric and transmitter! lol

 

[drrich2]

I'm not going back over the thread to see if this has already been mentioned. Got a Dive Right In Scuba e-mail with an 11% off sale on a HOG brand 'total buoyancy control system package.' You get a number of customization options. The price given is $399 (sale ends Jan. 1), and it says:

---

Items Included:

1 – Deluxe Flex Harness

1 – Aluminum Back Plate (Blk or Red) or Flex Soft Plate Pack

1 – Hog 23 Black or 32lb Bungee Singles Wing (All Black or Black/Red)

1 – Hog Set of Drop Weight Pockets (Large or Small)

1 – Hog 1.5 In Quick Release or Hog 2 In Standard Crotch Strap

2 – Tank Straps (Plastic Buckle, SS Buckle, or Quick Fit )

2 – Sex Bolts

---

Add $4.88 to get large instead of small quick drop weight pockets. $26.60 if you want a 32 lbs lift wing instead of 23 lbs. If you want stainless steel cam band buckles instead of plastic, that costs a bit more. It's $13.30 to have them web your harness if you wish (and I would!).

I like the black and red color scheme, and the option to get a black or red aluminum backplate (you can get a soft plate or pay an upcharge for stainless steel).

I don't own HOG gear, but from what I understand it's quite reputable, I'd have no qualms about getting it, and that's a pretty sweet price.

Because I'm foot heavy (even with light fins, my Deep6 Eddys), I would add tank cam band trim pockets.

I'm normally not a stylish person, but for whatever reason, I like my BCD to look good to me. Here's their product photo of it:

 

[tr3a]

A Fenzy is one of the early horse collar style BC's (resembles a modern snorkel vest), and A mistral refers to an early Aqualung Doublehose regulator where all guts of the reg system are in the part that attaches to the tank, and the hose loop is just ambient pressure air coming in from the right and out to the left (my avatar picture I'm using a DA Aquamaster doublehose). Most shops have an aneurism when they see vintage gear..... it really is safe if maintained, but it has different characteristics.

Key point I think Jim was making is that as long as it's safe and functional, there shouldn't be any issue.

The doublehose and plastic backpack comment is referring to how it used to be (and some of us still do). Early days of SCUBA, BCD's hadn't been invented yet, SPG's weren't a thing, and buddy breathing (2 people sharing one reg) was what predated the concept of an Octo. So a simple reg on a tank, with a plastic backpack to hold it on the harness... Get your weighting right, and lungs are all you need for buoyancey control.

@Jim Lapenta , If I stepped on your toes, tell me to shut up!

Respectfully,

James

Actually a Mistral is a single stage double hose regulator. Actually a very nice breather. Being a single stage no way to put an octo on it. Banjo required for SPG (with long yoke).

 

[James79]

Actually a Mistral is a single stage double hose regulator. Actually a very nice breather. Being a single stage no way to put an octo on it. Banjo required for SPG (with long yoke).

I'm aware, just was over simplifying to get to the gist of it. One of my DH regs I enjoy a lot is a modified Healthways Scuba.... Single stage and I run it either with a j valve or a valve with an HP port