planning a deco dive

[MikeFerrara]

Fair point, I guess I didn't want to say 'yes it can be done, but YOU can not do it, because I don't think you're skilled enough', and besides I've spent a lot of time discussing/doing this kind of dives (safely) so I suppose I might have gotten a bit too enthusiastic about the whole thing...

So for the record then - And this one is for you Chris, Mike and Steve - In the case of this diver we're talking about, then DON'T DO IT.

Certain divers with lots of experience and training can do sixty meters in safety. If you are not one of them, then stick to the limits of your training.

Thank you - Checking out

If you're refering to me, I didn't give much of an opinion one way or the other. There's just to much to consider to be discussed in a thread like this I think. In my own technical training I went the deep air rout. If there was another option at the time, I didn't know about it but I do know that there are other options now. I dived to 170 ft on air as a requirement/limit of the class and a few times after and I don't like it. I got through it ok and I think that I could do it again but it wasn't enough fun for me to want to do it again. I had one buddy go completely blank on me at about 165 and that was some one who, in theory, was qualified (at least according to the agencies that teach such things). I think 200 would totally suck on air and I just aint doing it. At 200 ft, I usually have at least 45% helium and usually more depending on the mas depth of the dive. I know other divers who have conducted cave surveys at 250 ft on air but I notice they don't do much of that anymore. While they are likely to be found diving deeper on air than I care to they don't seem to go out of their way to do it these days. Another friend of mine argues with me for years that no one needed helium above 200 ft until he started diving helium and now I don't think he leaves home without it. I've had the chance to discuss really deep diving on air with Hal Watts, who has held deep air records, and trained others who have or do hold records and I don't think that this dive, as outlined, would get his approval. I don't mean to speak for him but I remember what he said when I asked how one justifies or even survives some of the depths he has dived to on air. If you ever get the chance, ask him yourself, especially if you have an interest in deep air diving. He is definately worth hearing before you go off doing a dive like that.

I guess if I had to make a recommendation my first choice would be, don't do it. My second would be to suggest going to 40 fathom and spending some time with Mr. Watts because I think his is the only agency that goes that deep on air. The rest cut it off at 170 or so and beyond that you'll be on some helium mix. Don't get me wrong, for the most part, I don't think much of this certification bunk but it's still a good idea to take advantage of the experience of others. I don't think you'll find many reputable people who actually have air diving experience at 200 ft willing to take someone just so they can see what happens. At 40 fathom they've taken lots of people down the bonsi (sp?) line and I think they bring them all back for the most part. I guy who worked there once told me that they've never lost a diver. He said, it's just a little grotto and they're all just right down there...as he pointed. He offered another piece of wsdome that I found very insightful too. He said...don't pee in my grotto...I don't swim in your toilet so don't you pee in my grotto. I haven't swam in a toilet since and while I have peed in a few grottos, I always think of him when I do.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

I really thought the air record was in the 300s, can't find anything on it today. But at 400 fsw that's a PO2 of like 2.7, you can see why its difficult to grasp. I didn't think people could live at that kind of PO2, at least underwater.

 

[Hammerhead]

Sorry, can't do justice to MikeFerrara's sensible post above as Jessica Alba's calling me from the bedroom to sort out a bounce dive to 120m with the PADI Instructors' group, after the usual boring sexual encounters she puts me through, of course.

Actually I'm off to bed, but - as demonstrated - a boy can dream, can't he?

Sweet dreams and safe diving to all.

 

[espenskogen]

Yeah, and I read it in the News of The World and the National Enquirer too. Not to mention The Onion. Come on, mate, no-one's calling you a liar, but I do know people who have come close to what you claimed to "know" to have been done and called it quits.

I think you need to re-examine your acceptance of what people tell you as being fact.

I'm sure you do - But then we know there are people who have done much deeper dives than 120 on air. Are you saying that no Padi instructors in warm, good viz water have ever done a 120 m dive on air?

I agree it's stupidly deep, and that it's not a common thing to do, but it has been done. Whether the chap I spoke to were truthful about it or not, I don't know - I have no reason to think he'd be lying about it.

The truth is, you have no foundation for making a call on this one either way. The fact that your friends could not do it, does not mean it hasn't been done. Believe what you will - Even if he was not telling the truth about that dive, it would still not change anything, because there are many divers who's done that kind of depths on air.

But I get your point - You think the man was fibbing which is fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion.

Since I know the fella, I don't actually think he was - But since I don't need you to believe me, I'm not going to try and convince you.

 

[espenskogen]

If you're refering to me, I didn't give much of an opinion one way or the other. There's just to much to consider to be discussed in a thread like this I think. In my own technical training I went the deep air rout. If there was another option at the time, I didn't know about it but I do know that there are other options now. I dived to 170 ft on air as a requirement/limit of the class and a few times after and I don't like it. I got through it ok and I think that I could do it again but it wasn't enough fun for me to want to do it again. I had one buddy go completely blank on me at about 165 and that was some one who, in theory, was qualified (at least according to the agencies that teach such things). I think 200 would totally suck on air and I just aint doing it. At 200 ft, I usually have at least 45% helium and usually more depending on the mas depth of the dive. I know other divers who have conducted cave surveys at 250 ft on air but I notice they don't do much of that anymore. While they are likely to be found diving deeper on air than I care to they don't seem to go out of their way to do it these days. Another friend of mine argues with me for years that no one needed helium above 200 ft until he started diving helium and now I don't think he leaves home without it. I've had the chance to discuss really deep diving on air with Hal Watts, who has held deep air records, and trained others who have or do hold records and I don't think that this dive, as outlined, would get his approval. I don't mean to speak for him but I remember what he said when I asked how one justifies or even survives some of the depths he has dived to on air. If you ever get the chance, ask him yourself, especially if you have an interest in deep air diving. He is definately worth hearing before you go off doing a dive like that.

I guess if I had to make a recommendation my first choice would be, don't do it. My second would be to suggest going to 40 fathom and spending some time with Mr. Watts because I think his is the only agency that goes that deep on air. The rest cut it off at 170 or so and beyond that you'll be on some helium mix. Don't get me wrong, for the most part, I don't think much of this certification bunk but it's still a good idea to take advantage of the experience of others. I don't think you'll find many reputable people who actually have air diving experience at 200 ft willing to take someone just so they can see what happens. At 40 fathom they've taken lots of people down the bonsi (sp?) line and I think they bring them all back for the most part. I guy who worked there once told me that they've never lost a diver. He said, it's just a little grotto and they're all just right down there...as he pointed. He offered another piece of wsdome that I found very insightful too. He said...don't pee in my grotto...I don't swim in your toilet so don't you pee in my grotto. I haven't swam in a toilet since and while I have peed in a few grottos, I always think of him when I do.

I absolutely agree with everything you've said here. Just to have said it, if there was a choice, I'd go down the trimix road every single time. If you're dead set on air, then there are ways to do that too.

When it comes to the bit about peeing in the grotto... Are you deep on air at the moment?

 

[espenskogen]

I really thought the air record was in the 300s, can't find anything on it today. But at 400 fsw that's a PO2 of like 2.7, you can see why its difficult to grasp. I didn't think people could live at that kind of PO2, at least underwater.

Sheck Exley did 400fsw on air. Since then, others have done a lot deeper..

 

[ScubaSixString]

Sheck Exley did 400fsw on air. Since then, others have done a lot deeper..

Can't speak for the lots deeper part, but if the dive you're talking about is the one i think it is, he went to 425 on air chasing two other deep air divers who were in trouble and almost bought the farm. The bodies of the two he was chasing were never recovered. If i remember correctly

 

[MikeFerrara]

Since I can't do what I planned on doing today, there's still coffee in the pot and since I brought up 40 fathom I thought I'd tell the story of my first couple of visits there as it relates (sort of) to deep air diving.

I was a fairly new PADI instructor and no doubt about it, I was HOT! I had to go to Florida on business and it was the kind of trip where I wasn't going to be busy at business the whole time so I took my wife...no one elses wife wanted to go so I took my own. We decided to bring some dive gear and planned some time on the gulf but got blown out...I get blown out of about everyplace especially when I travel far. As lousy as the weather is everyplace there's water I'm surprised that any one ever gets in a dive. Being all dressed up and having few places to go we made a tour of some of the springs eventually ending up at 40 fathom. At the time, and I'm assuming it's still the same, you hade to dive with a bonified 40 fathom guide. Being my lucky day and all, they told me that a DM or instructor could do a checkout dive and become an honest to goodness 40 fathom grotto guide...so I did that.

Here's where it gets fun and just for kicks, I'll mention that I had baught one of those square can lights they used to sell over at Blue Grotto which was 4 - 5 pounds neg rather than neutral as I was told and I decided to use it. I'd like to tell you that6 my trim was usually much better than it was on this dive because of the light but since I was unable to demonstrate that on this dive I'll let it go at saying that I had an awful time...foot down head up to the MAX...a picture of me would have fit very well in any dive magazine or even a PADI video.

So...I pay my money and start the check out dive process. The guide asks if we have any deep dive training. I say...well of course, I'm an instructor, a certified PADI deep diver and a few dives away from being a deep diving instructor myself...I didn't say it but I thought the absolute model of diving skill, experience and who in the world could be more certified than I was? At the time I couldn't understand the roll of his eyes and that snide little smile of his but I eventually got it and fortunately it wasn't too painful.

I'm sure that some of you have been on this checkout but for those who haven't, it's the same old, same old. You descend, hover, take your mask off and put it back and the usual stuff to prove that you aren't going to drown. Then they take you on a dive to the deepest depth that you're certified to dive and then you too can guide divers to that depth.

I did all that looking just as slick and as cool as I could given that I had that stupid can light that didn't seem to be as neutral as I thought it would be. I noticed a couple of other things though. First off, our guide kept rolling his eyes and he had this twitchy little smile that sort of came and went...all noticeable even under water. I would have thought he was suffering from some sort of imparement or affliction except for the fact that I had never seen a diver as rock solid, sleek, trim, horizontal and movin like a fish in the water in all my life even though I HAD dived with the best including many other instructors and even course directors.

We finished the dive and I was a new 40 fathom guide. My wife was happy enough but not being an instructor like I was she may not have been in tune with everything that was going on. I was depressed. If our guide and I were both diving, it was a different sort of diving that he was doing! I was thinking that it might have been something that he made up himself. I wasn't going to ask but I decided to find out.

After some quiet investigative work I started to get the impression that you learn that sort of diving in technical training. I wasn't yet totally sure exactly what that was but I was going to get some. As my luck would have it, it came to my attention that one of our manufacturers reps (we were working on opening a dive shop by this time) was a technical diving instructor, cave diver and all around diving guru. A bunch of money and two dives later (no that wasn't a typing mistake...I said TWO...it was cold so why do more than you need to when you're as good as we were) and we were IANTD certified Advanced Nitrox and deep divers (deep air) and on our way to 40 fathom to do my technical diver class. For the sake of clearity that course is what used to be nown as "technical nitrox".

That brings us to my second trip to 40 fathom but that's another story.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

... and almost bought the farm. The bodies of the two he was chasing were never recovered. If i remember correctly

That's not almost buying the farm bro, that's taking the note.

Unless you're saying he almost bought the farm too, then I think its a run-on sentence but I'd have to check with a linguist,

 

[pickens_46929]

Mike,

Hal's a hoot and half isn't he?

Was there this year when he took an instructor to 130 foot so he could become a guide there... the instuctor was so narc'd Hal had to bring him up to 90 ft. or so before he snapped out of it...