Pit bull coming at me, owner screaming "Vicious NO"

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H2Andy:
not quite... there isn't even a dog called a pit bull... there's a few breeds that get lumped in... anyway...

the "pit bulls" of today (of the past 100 years, in fact) have not been bred to fight.

did you know in the UK they are called "nanny dogs" because they are so good with children?

some people do fight their dogs. again, that's not the dog. that's the owner.

yes, there are no bad dogs. there are bad owners.
Heck, even the kennel associations have a hard time deciding if the American Pit Bull and the Staffordshire are one or two breeds. The melange of dogs labeled "pit bulls" may not be exactly the same (and some may not deserve the label) but mostly we aren't talking apples to oranges here, more often we're comparing Red Delicious to Macintosh. Poodles and Yorkies these things ain't.

From the Roman arenas more than 2000 years ago to the late-19th century English butchers dogs, these dogs and their progenitors were bred specifically to be ferocious and vicious fighters. The argument that in the past 100 years this has not been the case is...deceptive. In 1898 the United Kennel Club was formed with the express intent of providing registration and fighting guidelines for the now officially-named American Pit Bull Terrier - things have changed but not enough. It doesn't take much of a google to find that there are illegal breeders in most major cities in the US that are still fighting these dogs and working hard to keep them as mean as they possibly can. Fighting may not have recently been a primary objective of most breeders in Europe and the United States but that doesn't mean that those breeders have been breeding against the fighting instinct, either. You might overcome a couple of millenia of breeding in 100 years but not unless you work hard to remove the trait and that has not been done.

As to their nanny dog status in Great Britain, one distinct characteristic of the breed is an intense loyalty to the "pack" of humans that it belongs to. Though "fiercely protective" can be a good thing, it doesn't mean slobbering all over someone. Uncontrolled, it can be a nightmare waiting to happen.

In the hands of an owner who is willing to train and consistently dominate the dog, most dogs can be terrific pets. Unfortunately many pit bulls end up in the hands of weak-willed individuals who seek them out for protection and fail to train and control them or in the hands of deranged morons who are drawn to them because they want them to be vicious. Both of these are the "bad owners" you speak of. Good Grief, the name of the dog that jumped Ber was Vicious! That's not a bad joke, it's a command.

It can be hard to keep a dog, especially a big dog, especially a big dog bred to fight, from becoming a bad dog. Fortunately, though regrettably, the solution once the dog goes bad is simple: destroy it. If the owner won't do the responsible thing, they should be punished, too. Shooting the owners might be a little bit harsh, however. Pit Bulls represent a serious threat completely out of proportion to either their size or their numbers. A good Pit Bull requires a better than average owner to suppress more than 2000 years of malicious breeding and all too rarely does this happen.

Bottom line: It doesn't matter why there are bad dogs, but bad dogs there are. Refusing to acknowledge this diminishes the rest of your argument.

The best family dogs come from the shelter. If you're looking for a dog as a family pet, spend some time learning about dogs and then go spend an afternoon playing with the puppies at the pound and bring the one that loves you best home - chances are he'll have fewer of the genetic distortions that mark so many of the "pure breeds" and you'll save enough money to put the whole family through obedience training.
 
Giggi:
Don't hate the breed. Hate stupid owners who treat their pets like children. Dogs are ANIMALS, not human beings. They want and need discipline, and if you don't show them who's boss, they will take the leadership position.

Cesar Millan is my hero.
for whatever it's worth children need discipline too... else they'll start driving around shooting people out of cars

but do agree about treating pets like people... it's a bit much and very paris hilton

Jag
 
Since I have been keeping up on this thread, I am giving my $.02 now. I think the owner should be held responsible for medical expenses and any other out of pocket expenses. Dog should be muzzeled for first offense. Then if a second offense the owner, since they know they have a dangerous dog should be charged with second degree involuntary manslaughter. Then the dog should be humanely put to sleep.

On the account of if I was walking on a bike path and I had for some reason a gun, I would not think twice about it being between me or the dog. I was in fear of my life and I believe a human life is worth more than a dog. If it was attacking my dog that was being restrained but the owner was doing nothing to stop the attack, again I was in fear for my life. I saw the dog attack my dog and thought that when it was done it would come after me.

My brother owns a pitbull dog and it is a loving caring very large dog. They treat it like it is a child because they can not have kids. I am always alert as to what the dog is doing but I do not trust it as far as I could throw it. I am sure that if the dog harmed one of my children they would put it to sleep. I would NEVER leave the dog alone with my children

I can not understand a person that puts a animals life above a person. By the way I own three dogs and a cat.

Tamas the gun is not a killer. A gun can not pull the trigger or make a bullet explode out of the barrel. The person pulling the trigger is the killer. I am sorry you are against guns. I am taught that deadly force is the last possible action to take, but if you have a 90 lb dog charging you. I can not see wrestling with the dog and being mauled, I will shoot the dog dead.

The comment that Catherine made"Rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6 is a Military term."

While stationed over in Somalia our rules of engagement were. . .

If the Somali has a weapon,
The Somali had to aim the weapon at you,
Then the Somali had to shoot at you.
Then we could shoot back

We would not wait for the Somali to shoot before we would shoot back. I am sorry but if they are taking aim at me I can not see any other reason for that except that they are going to try to kill me.
 
Tamas:
I am sure you had a terrific encounter with a crazed dog, but can you safely and surely identify the attacker as a Pit Bull? Don't hate the breed because of one bad apple! In human terms, that would be discrimination based on generalization.
I never said I hated them, he was a beautiful animal he just wanted a piece of my dog and I. I'm generally pretty easy going but anything (or anyone) that comes after me or mine with intent to harm is going to have a fight on its hands. I'm positive it was a pit bull, I checked your link with the pictures of the dogs and it looked like #16 but it was a milk chocolate color. I clicked on #16 and that's a pit bull.

I've been bitten by a couple of dogs in my life. When I was a kid we had an American Eskimo Dog (little white fluffy dog) and it bit me in in the lip, I was in it's face and it didn't appreciate that so it bit me and I bit it back. Mom said both I and the dog came running to the garage screaming and there was so much blood on both of us she wasn't sure at first who had done the biting and who the blood was coming from.

The second time I was a freshman in high school and at a friend's house. They had a German Shepherd and I was sitting down petting it but I was in it's face (do we see a pattern here?) and just as she started to warn me the dog didn't like your face close to hers the dog bit me. Her bottom teeth were in my mouth and her top teeth on top of my nose, she could have literally rearranged my face but it was a warning snap rather than an attack and she startled me more than she hurt me.

The third time was a few years ago and I was holding my husband's aunt's Dachsund. We were all talking and any time I smiled the dog would emit a low growl, I didn't think anything of it until the little sucker bit me on the lip after a particularly big smile. The little dog probably thought I was baring my teeth at it intending to attack and it was simply defending itself.

That pit bull encounter was only the second time I've had a dog come after me. The first time was at a friends house and I was in the pasture with the horses when I heard something in the weeds. There was a pack of feral dogs that had been running loose in the area killing other dogs and some smaller farm animals. They had chased my friend's horses through the fence once and the animals still had scars from that encounter. Three of the dogs were passing through the field until they saw me; they crouched down and started stalking toward me and the horse I was petting. When I saw them coming I grabbed the horse's halter and turned her back end toward them, she was the only weapon I had. The dogs continued to stalk until my friend came around the corner of the barn, when they saw her they took off--I guess one person was worth hunting but two took the odds out of their favor. Now THAT was scary!
Ber :lilbunny:
 
Reefrat,

You articulate my beliefs on these dogs very well. Great, persuasive post, intelligently written. I like it when someone does their research and then makes their case so much better than shooting me all the google links of all the little newspaper articles from across America. I don't always have the patience to "educate myself" to other people's standards.

My very first post stated how my dog herds. He is bred to herd. He can't stop when he tries, it is his default "fundamental nature."
Fundamental Nature, if I remember correctly, is a distict biology concept, not a term I invented.

The other important point is that the bad animals are not culled, they are bred.

The problem I have with these SB debates where people "Google Post", is that it comes across slightly condescending sometimes in my view. I am on SB because I am interested in your viewpoint, your collective opinions that you have formulated not just by reading facts but by living your life experiences. If I want to research something, I know how to google already. Also, people that respond this way, often got their "facts" five seconds ago and they are not the seasoned, contextual, reflective thoughts that emerge from a better understanding of the broader framework of an issue.

I know there is a place for google links and hard facts, but I wish people would put them in their own context.


Floridawannabe: your rules of engagement you were asked to operate under in Samalia, very interesting! amazing...
 
reefraff:
Bottom line: It doesn't matter why there are bad dogs, but bad dogs there are.
Refusing to acknowledge this diminishes the rest of your argument.

hey, reef.... looks like you missed the whole point of this discussion

it does matter why they are bad dogs.

they are bad dogs because of poor ownership (either training, control, or
awareness that the dog is somehow unsuited for certain environments)

they are NOT bad dogs because of the breed they happen to be.

you could have awesome pit bulls and you can have crazy pit bulls.

it's not the breed, it's the owner. the responsiblility is not with the dog
but with the owner.

i can't make it any clearer than that.

catherine96821:
The problem i have with these SB debates where people "Google Post", is that it comes across slightly condescending sometimes in my view.

i think you're a bit too sensitive, personally. you called us intellectuals
with no basis in the real world, and you keep making personal comments
about us, and then take everything we say personally.

it's just a discussion. it's not personal. no need to make it so eyebrow

but you do display what seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding
these dogs, so i figured i'd let you read what real authorities have to say
instead of taking my word for it.

sorry that came across as condensending. i have never in my life
heard that supporting your argument with authorities is condensending.
 
I guess we have gotten waaay off topic here with the whole guns vs. no guns debate as I have been answering numerous PM's regarding my believes on the issue which goes a lot deeper and is a social and political issue with certain demographics and nations. BUT that is not the point of the thread.

Dogs are wild animals, they demonstrated that many times over...let them be an overbred Poodle to a cuddly Dachound with bad eyesight that bites lips when smiled upon....the point is that wild animals are unpredictable and have instincts in them that will NEVER be bred out -- we must accept that and learn to live with it (look at all the attacks by large captive trained cats for example). The whole Pit-Bull issue is a problem, but it is a problem that the media made bigger then what it really is. (I am sure there have been documented attacks and bites by the dogs - no debate there) Pit-Bull have been getting all the attention lately and more and more people are reporting attacks by them because they are the focus of attention. There are other dog attacks I am sure as well, but they might go un-noticed simply because they are not the breed of choice for the blood hungry media and the people requiring "entertainment".

In short, the breed is not the sole problem. There are always bad apples and ill tempered individuals, but we have to look at the species as a whole as well as owners that do not train and tame the beast even more.

Dogs will bite, it is in their nature, they have no verbal skills or hands they can use - but have teeth instead and need to communicate in way or another.

Shark attacks are the same, the shark never "meant" to kill the human, but it was curious and took a look the best way it could - the human died as a result of it but that is not the intended purpose of the shark. For example, as per scientists if a white shark would want to kill, a human, like a seal, would have a mere 20-30 seconds to live. But most of these attacks are mistaken identity and just curiosity - but the attacker lacks the proper tools for investigation and communication.
 
Tamas:
Dogs are wild animals, they demonstrated that many times over...let them be an overbred Poodle to a cuddly Dashound with bad eyesight that bites lips when smiled upon....the point is that wild animals are unpredictable and have instincts in them that will NEVER be bred out -- we must accept that and learn to live with it (look at all the attacks by large captive trained cats for example). The whole Pit-Bull issue is a problem, but it is a problem that the media made bigger then what it really is. (I am sure there have been documented attacks and bites by the dogs - no debate there) Pit-Bull have been getting all the attention lately and more and more people are reporting attacks by them because they are the focus of attention. There are other dog attacks I am sure as well, but they might go un-noticed simply because they are not the breed of choice for the blood hungry media and the people requiring "entertainment".

In short, the breed is not the sole problem. There are always bad apples and ill tempered individuals, but we have to look at the species as a whole as well as owners that do not train and tame the beast even more.
1. We do not keep captive trained big cats as pets... at least the majority of us don't. Has NO bearing on this argument.
2. Pit Bulls get the attention because of the ferocity of the attacks. Granted Chihuahua's bite too but they don't kill.
3. Breed IS the problem... mix underbred humans & overbred dogs and you have a major problem.
 
Moodiejeff:
3. Breed IS the problem... mix underbred humans & overbred dogs and you have a major problem.

you know, i'm almost there with you...

but the only dog that has ever bit me was a mutt... a frigging little mutt,
with an idiot for an owner

i've been around tons of pit bulls (a prof. of mine bred them, and i helped),
some rotts, and a few dobies, and i NEVER got bit... they all had good owners
 

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