Piston or diaphragm

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What is your preference and why?
Thanks in advance.

Historically the advantage of piston regs was that they were thought to be easier to field strip and repair on a boat or at a dive site.

Historically the advantage of diaphragm regs was that they were inherently better sealed and thought to be less affected by cold, silt, salt, etc.

Real world today, there are fantastic regs with either technology, and very few people field strip a reg.
 
When you do the "Oh, the things I've seen!" query, pistons win out from a service perspective. Since I would second virtually every comment that praises environmental sealing, there are first stages available of both types.
But environmental sealing is critical for a piston, and not just for ice. The floating garbage from muck to fine floaty coral sand just never quite disappears from the environmental chamber of a Scubapro Mk 25, and may in fact adhere to the tacky lube right next to the piston oring. You end up scratching the bejeezus out of the piston land, leading to eventual leaking of the reg.

On the diaphragm side, environmental sealing is much easier, but as a service tech, torque is critical! I've seen blown diaphragms that were undertorqued, and diaphragms squeezed out of position from being overtorqued, and the potential for sudden failure is very scary.

I will and do dive a diaphragm that I have serviced myself (SP Mk 19). As noted above, it's very easy to adjust the IP, and you don't even have to rinse it!

But for my failsafe reg, I dive a sealed Atomic Piston. The spring is stable, so the IP is too. The Christolube inside means nothing else gets in there. Three year service interval is conservative in my hands. That's my killer first stage for stability and failsafe operation. Scubapro lost out when it stopped sealing the Mk 10 SPEC. I don't even dive my Mk 25.
 
sand just never quite disappears from the environmental chamber of a Scubapro Mk 25, and may in fact adhere to the tacky lube right next to the piston oring. You end up scratching the bejeezus out of the piston land, leading to eventual leaking of the reg.

I don't know about these things. Once the piston land is scratched enough, does that mean you have to junk the reg? Or is something you can fix? Is it something that is naturally fixed as part of a normal service?
 
I don't know about these things. Once the piston land is scratched enough, does that mean you have to junk the reg? Or is something you can fix? Is it something that is naturally fixed as part of a normal service?

replace the piston, it's just like $50 to do that
 
replace the piston, it's just like $50 to do that

Thanks.

And how many dives in water full of coral sand would you expect to get before the piston needed to be replaced? Worst case scenario.
 
I don't know about these things. Once the piston land is scratched enough, does that mean you have to junk the reg? Or is something you can fix? Is it something that is naturally fixed as part of a normal service?

The art of restoring a piston first stage that's near and dear to your heart is not widely practiced. Most shops will (if your reg is new enough) simply replace the portion of your housing that contains your piston land (the area where the piston o-ring seals), and charge you an extra $50-80. In fact, most regs that have a LP leak (bubbling from the environmental holes that is not coming from the HP piston shaft o-ring) can be restored with a little loving care. The following photos show what I'm talking about. They're all piston lands from Mk 10's, 20's and Mk 25's that (since Scubapro doesn't do SPEC boots anymore) can't be sealed from what is floating around in the water. But I've even seen it in titanium Atomics that weren't sealed. I believe that titanium, though stronger, is not harder than chrome, and accumulated grit sticking to the back of the piston on the seawater side will do the same thing that you're seeing on these brass/chrome regs. These problems are slow-growing. Your reg won't fail in a week. But I still dive my sealed Mk 10 that is over 30 years old. If you don't religiously wash your reg, and don't seal it, don't be surprised at a leak at the 2-10 year mark, depending upon how gritty your dive water is. If your reg is out of production, then you're done.

This first photo shows the fine line (red arrow) where the piston o-ring sat for years. Accumulated behind it (blue arrow) is the result of salt/sand/mud that sat in place for probably a long time before I saw this reg.
While this reg was largely fixed by polishing as you'll see below, it never sealed perfectly.

What happens is that floating grit sticks to the Christolube used to lubricate the piston o-ring.

It gets worse. If you have grit that sits in place from a lack of thorough washing (and it's often impossible to get enough jet action to really wash out the environmental chamber of a piston), then that grit moves up and down (a little tiny bit) with the piston head every time you take a breath, and moves up and down (a lot) when you first pressurize the reg:
Those vertical scratches serve as air pathways for a low pressure leak.
But after polishing, you have a clean piston land that will probably seal perfectly, especially if you haven't gone through the chrome:

This series shows an old Mk20 that a diver wanted restored. As you can see from the golden color, much of the chrome is already gone.
After some time in warm ultrasonic solution, much of the crud is gone:
And after polishing, you can get a fair sealing surface back
But those tiny scratches are sources of microscopic leaks that will prevent true piston head seal. Tiny bubbles will appear in the ambient holes.

Micromesh is a cloth-backed sandpaper that ranges from 1,500 to 10,000 grit. Some techs use rouge and a cloth. Either way, you can gradually polish a leaking reg into pretty good shape. The more you have to polish, the more chrome you take off. But the point is, you can use an hour's hand labor to preserve your precious toy, rather than just switching out parts like most shops. For regs (Mk 5's, DACOR) with only rare spares, that's the only way you'll keep diving them.
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But the real point of my thread is that for my OWN regs, I've just stopped diving SP pistons that aren't sealed. I hand seal my old Mk10 with a DIY SPEC boot to keep sea water out, but mostly I just dive sealed Atomic pistons or a sealed diaphragm. I don't do it for ice or freezing. I do it for floating junk. And if you're a piston diver, it makes traveling easy. You only have to rinse OUT your second stage, and rinse OFF your first. Thirty seconds when you climb off the boat.

A side benefit is service. While second stages need some time in the ultrasonic every couple of years, I haven't serviced my Mk 10 in five years now. The IP is still 135, and locks up tight. The only thing that is inside is Christolube. Sea water pressure is transmitted to the back of the piston via the SPEC boot.
 
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@rsingler : nicely documented!

FWIW - I polished a MK-10 with Flitz and a Dremel using a wool pad/disc with some great success. Never tried Micromesh....

(Back story was a liar e-bay store selling fully serviced stuff. When I got it and it failed on pressurization, they told me it was damaged in shipping, and to return it. I was not going that route as I don't know how shipping resulted in it extruding the silicone (they actually told me something was wrong with my tank as it was the only way silicone would be coming out of the first stage - WOW!). Was a total lie - verified when I opened it. Never serviced, and saltwater corrosion on the chamber and spring due to poor packing/maintenance. When I opened it up, I knew that they would then blame me or claim something else outrageous. I never sent it back as I knew the cherry g250 would never be returned to me... it was a good deal on a G250, universal DIN, MK-10 (was actually a 10+, and they didn't know that) that could be a parts donor even if I couldn't save it, though I did.)

live and learn...
 
My preference for my primary regulators is to use a well made, sealed ambient chamber, diaphragm first stage like the Scubapro Mk 17 or Aqualung Legend. The sealed design keeps grit, salt water, etc out of the ambient end of the first stage. Both the above designs have more than enough performance for deep, technical diving and are both well made and very reliable.

My preference for a stage regulator is to have a simple, durable design that is easy to service, inexpensive to acquire, and has adequate performance for 200+ foot dives. The Scubapro Mk 10, and Mk 10+ are the designs that come to mind, in particular because they still enjoy annual service part support. They are also flow through piston designs that won't choke if the first stage becomes flooded. That's not always the case with a diaphragm first stage, where a significant slug of water can cause issues with the large rubber diaphragm.

There are a couple downsides with the Mk 10. The piston stem o-ring, as it rides in the regulator body and over time, wear in that area and on the piston stem can result in piston stem o-ring getting pinched at high tank pressures. However, when used as a stage regulator the pressure is limited to about 3000 psi and this isn't an issue, unless the reg has seen really long and hard use. The unsealed ambient chamber is the other weakness. The early versions of the Mk 10 used 1/16" holes in the ambient pressure chamber which were designed to retain fairly thick environmental silicone. The later models used larger holes with a SPEC boot covering them. Both systems worked well, but the tech had to be on his game and know how to properly pack the chamber to avoid trapping water against the metal surfaces in the chamber. The later models are easier to rinse if you are not using silicone or Christolube in the ambient chamber. The IP also has a fairly limited precision of adjustment, relying on shims and different seat heights.

My preference for an O2 first stage is to keep it as simple as possible. Flow by piston designs like the Scubapro Mk 2, Mk 200 or Mk 3 are ideal as they have only two dynamic O-rings and both are in the intermediate pressure section of the first stage. They also offer plenty of performance at 20' O2 depths.

That said, I use the Mk 10 and 10+ for both stage and O2 deco in order to maintain commonality with one reg for both purposes.

I like the Sherwood 9000 first stage. It is also a flow by piston design, but it uses a stack of Belleville washers to increase the working range at pressures over about 400 psi, so it offers good performance, while maintaining the general simplicity of flow by piston operation. Unlike the Mk 2 or Mk 10, it also has a sealed ambient chamber - in this case via a pressure pad and diaphragm on the base of the regulator that operates a Schrader valve to increase pressure in the ambient chamber. If I saw them available in significant numbers and at low prices, I'd consider them for stage use, If the IP could be more precisely adjusted, I'd modify one to a fixed IP design and use it for an O2 reg on my KISS rebreather.
 
The more I read this stuff, the more I think I should just stick to my Dive Rite XTs or get some Deep6 Signature regs.

Sealed diaphragm with a swivel turret and 5th port. What more could I want? Use them for anything. BM doubles. Sidemount. Stages. Deco bottles.

If only ScubaPro would bring back the Mk19 (or a similar alternative)...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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