Phase I: Guinness Record

[Raven C]

Whew, step back and watch me work.

(She cracks her knuckles and pops her neck. LOL)

 

[KrisB]

I noticed this on the ForceFin website:
http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/FF_wisewords/testimonials/jens_hilbert.htm -- for when "Jens Hilbert reclaimed the long distance underwater swimming record"

Now, I'm not advocating FF's for this (I know you're a DIR guy and all...) but here's an interesting note: "In addition to FORCE FINS, a special Poseidon regulator was used that moistened the air entering his lungs, and Hilbert designed a low drag tank carrier to increase his efficiency."

Have you considered that with air you'll be essentially curing your lungs? I can't imagine that God intended them to be dry...

Besides, dehydration has been known to be a contributing factor to DCS -- even with the slow ascent, I imagine that it is still possible if your body is that used to an environment.

 

[SeaJay]

Thanks for the link.

Phase 15 (the distance record) is intended to be done using scooters, and will be considerably longer, both in time and distance, than 34 miles.

Still, if what's advertised is true, that's definitely impressive. I don't know that I'd want to swim 34 miles.

One of the big problems underwater is superhydration... The action of the skin cells becoming overhydrated through osmosis. In short, skin cells can become overhydrated (too much water content) and simultaneously salt and other minerals are leeched from them.

Of course, that doesn't prevent dry mouth or the drying of the lungs and linings and throat and all...

It may be wise to consider something which will hydrate the gas I'm breathing... But that's not the biggest problem I'm facing. I've spent a lot of time in the desert, and and not unpracticed at breathing arid air over long periods of time.

...So no, it hasn't really been a big concern. We'll see how Phases 1-5 go and I'll have a better idea of whether it should be a serious consideration.

 

[etype]

KrisB (ever think about underwater gold prospecting? Some people i know are looking into doing it on the Fraser just south of Quesnel)…Jens Hilbert is not DIR or a technical diver because he is a military diver. Just for clarity of definition for any who wonder, military and commercial divers are not technical or DIR divers. Technical or DIR diving is sport diving…military and commercial diving is not sport diving.

Seajay: i recommend using a coldwater reg with a heatexchanger for inhaled gas dehydration issue. The heatexchanger dehumidifies your exhaust…leaving moisture to humidify inhalation…the idea that those other regs mimic

i imagine your reading up on saturation diving. There are many answers in sat diving to problems you are going to have. It’s too bad you couldn’t find a saltwater tank...you may need to fashion one. Overhydration and hemodilution are characteristic of freshwater immersion. There are no such problems in saltwater. This work done to maintain a saltwater system is well worth it if you are serious about this record. In fact i suggest it may be crucial.

You should approach a University for assistance. The data you provide will ensure they commit resources, but it will take time to get their attention. I don’t think this is an unimportant record breaking attempt, simply to get in the Guiness. I think the data collected has implications for sport diving and medicine…and it has gold plated publicity value. It’s a fantastic idea really…you could be the Elvis of scuba.

Another possiblity is get Norwegian Universal Technology AS to lend you their classified liquified perfluorocarbon breathing apparatus…i've read they are going to bring it to the public soon …they also make one man bells…you should see if they…or maybe the nearest commercial diving school could lend you one for a toilet. You can read the daily paper easier.

You may need to pull off some attempts to show how your serious. I don’t want to say that you won’t jump in the tank and do 24 days first try….i'm rooting for a first shot....but i think the first time you attempt this record your going to face difficulties you havn’t thought of. I suggest that if you can even demonstrate technical feasibility, and successful wet runs…you will get commercial and scientific sponsorship. I think the idea is pure genius. If one has the cojones... excellent idea.

 

[SeaJay]

etype once bubbled...

i imagine your reading up on saturation diving.

Yep, done quite a bit of reading on the topic.

At least for Phase 1-5, "saturation" will actually be of the type in water shallower than 20'. In fact, many of the facilities that I'm considering are only 10' or 15' in depth.

According to all of the research I've done, there is never a decompression obligation at these shallow depths. However, the idea, at the end of the Phase 5 dive (the 14 day dive), is to drain the facility rather than actually surface... Making for a very long "decompression" for safety's sake.

It’s too bad you couldn’t find a saltwater tank...you may need to fashion one.

I HAVE found a saltwater facility. In fact, I've found several of them.

Diving freshwater for any of the Phases has never been a consideration, for exactly the reason you describe. This is a unique thought process in this arena... No other "Controlled Environment" endurance dive has ever been attempted - at least not on record - in anything but freshwater. Interesting and inspiring, isn't it?

I talked to the cop in Savannah over the weekend. His dive was successful, and it was not a 12 hour dive like someone mentioned. It was a 24 hour dive. It happened last weekend, in a pool that was 12 feet deep.

He gave me lots of pointers... Frankly, none of which were really "news." He simply confirmed what I already knew. It was very comforting, though.

His 24 hour dive was in freshwater, and yes, he had huge supersaturation problems. He mentioned to dive with gloves from the outset, not to wait like he'd done until his skin was already supersaturated. I found it interesting that he felt that gloves would slow the process - something I don't think would be very effective over 14 days.

There is a consideration, however, to wear latex gloves and booties, filled with Vaseline. That will definitely prevent the problem, but I don't really want to go there until I find it's impossible to do it any other way.

When I told him that I'd be doing my attempt in salt water, he said to me, "A glutton for punishment, eh?" He was referring to the long-term effect of overhydration... The splitting of the skin, which can be super-painful and can alone threaten the dive. Obviously, in salt water, the pain would be considerably higher than in freshwater.

However, I believe - apparently as you do, too - that saltwater will actually help prevent the overhydration in the first place, which I believe to be a better solution.

Overhydration and hemodilution are characteristic of freshwater immersion. There are no such problems in saltwater. This work done to maintain a saltwater system is well worth it if you are serious about this record. In fact i suggest it may be crucial.

Agreed. Selecting a better "controlled environment" than others before me is really what makes my attempt unique. My attempt is different both in water content and temperature than prior attempts.

You mention that "there is no such problem in salt water." While it's true that the problem is vastly reduced (the effects of salt water "wrinking" the skin are much less pronounced than in freshwater) the problem is still not completely solved. It's simply less pronounced.

I learned over the weekend that an "IV drip" that one might recieve in the emergency room at your local hospital is 0.09% NaCl because "that's matches the body's salt content." That's just under 1 part per thousand salt. The ocean's salinity averages about 35 parts per thousand... The likely choice of salinity for my habitat.

Logic tells us that this would make me, over time, hypersaline, not superhydrated. We may want to back off a little with the salt to achieve a balance; the aim is to learn that in Phases 1-4.

Whatever the balance is, I agree that 35 ppt salt causes considerably less superhydration problems than ~0 ppt salt.

Finding the right balance is key to the success of the attempt.

Not unlike the temperature issue, by the way.

You should approach a University for assistance.

I am a student at the University of South Carolina, but have had run-ins with them before when I created the University Scuba Club. I agree that assistance from a major university would be beneficial... But it will not be *that* university, that's for sure. They have no idea what they lost when they screwed me like they did over the Club.

I will be taking this to Duke University next weekend. I'm doing a hyperbaric study with them, and I plan to talk to them at that point. They seem very interested in diving research of all kinds, and have quite the impressive facility there.

The data you provide will ensure they commit resources, but it will take time to get their attention.

Agreed, which is why I'm participating in their current, unaffiliated study... And why I'm doing a Phase 1-4 before a Phase 5 - so I can show some success.

I don’t think this is an unimportant record breaking attempt, simply to get in the Guiness. I think the data collected has implications for sport diving and medicine…and it has gold plated publicity value. It’s a fantastic idea really…you could be the Elvis of scuba.

Hahahahhahaaa!!! "Don't you... Step on my blue suede regulator..."

There's really two areas where the research could be beneficial... One is research regarding the superhydration issue... The other is the physiological effects of long-term immersion... Dissolved gasses, the effects of weightlessness on the body, etc. Yes, it could be something that could benefit the diving community as a whole. That would be wonderful.

...But I'm not going to fake anyone out and try to pretend that I'm doing this for science. This is for the dream. If they can get some data, then that'd make it great for everyone. But the truth is that the dive's purpose simply isn't that noble.

Another possiblity is get Norwegian Universal Technology AS to lend you their classified liquified perfluorocarbon breathing apparatus…i've read they are going to bring it to the public soon

Very interesting.

I've heard about this sort of stuff before, and of course, I'd be interested. However, I can tell you that what I really need for the 14-day dive is an established and predictable regimen. I need to know exactly what to expect, and plan and prepare for it. Unfortunately, that exempts interesting pieces of equipment like liquid breathers and rebreathers.

Not unlike the DIR philosophy which I subscribe to, the idea on this dive is "known, trusted and established" before "advanced, new and cool."

...Perhaps on another Phase, if the new equipment supercedes the current stuff in safety and reliability.

…they also make one man bells…you should see if they…or maybe the nearest commercial diving school could lend you one for a toilet. You can read the daily paper easier.

Hahahahahaaaa!!! Unfortunately, I must stay submerged the entire dive, and no part of my gear can break the surface - any surface... Not even a bell. Hookah rigs are out, bells are out, and even breaking the surface with a fin is out. I am allowed to switch tanks, however, and surface support is allowed to exchange empties for fulls. Just so long as I'm not attached to the empties when they break the surface.

You may need to pull off some attempts to show how your serious.

Yeah, that's actually a really big player. Phases 1-4 will be exactly that.

Phase 5 - the "big dive" - will be a huge thing if I can get the right sponsorship and media attention. Unfortunately, those things don't come unless you've got a proven track record. Thus, Phases 1-4.

I don’t want to say that you won’t jump in the tank and do 24 days first try….

Whoa! Phase 1 is 24 hours. Phase 5 is 14 days. 24 days is not a consideration.

i'm rooting for a first shot....but i think the first time you attempt this record your going to face difficulties you havn’t thought of. I suggest that if you can even demonstrate technical feasibility, and successful wet runs…you will get commercial and scientific sponsorship. I think the idea is pure genius. If one has the cojones... excellent idea.

Thanks! Yep, I fully agree with you on all your points. I think it could be excellent for the entire dive community. And apparently not many agree with me on this, but to me it sounds like a ****load of fun.

 

[etype]

‘saturation diving’...

not decompression...i was referring to the fact that there are studies of long duration full human immersion in seawater. I remember stuff about it in the introductory chapters of textbooks on sat diving from a long time ago. I don’t have those books.... But the info has to be out there some where.
But there have been unofficial accounts of patial immersion for long term durations...namely those lost at sea. My impression, if memory serves, is that there are no ill effects from long term full immersion in seawater...unlike freshwater.
I believe the problem of seawater is not overhydration, but dehydration. As the salt is a desiccant, it will act as a hygroscopic substance until it ‘drys’ the immersed skin... this creates the barrier ..but the 'dry barrier' outer layer will still wick moisture out of the body much like dry air. I will look for more information on this from NIH. But this is also why seawater, along with mineral water, is used for physical therapy...as it draws elements from the pores, but does not disturb the celluar structure. So your object will be to not only replenish your fluids...but also your minerals, metals and vitamins. Electrolyte replensiment drinks might actually work against what you are doing...or they might not with proper nutrition. You may come out healthier than you went in.

Here you should approach GatorAid...on that subject i suggest you should have friends video and photograph every aspect you can. It could come in handy for endorsements and publicity efforts.

The person who told you that about the drip is wrong...0.9% NaCi, NaCi is just one element of the mineral content, sodium is just one element bonded to others to produce compounds, which is how the salt is composed in the blood....9%NaCi is just suitable for the purposes of IV ...but all the minerals of the ocean and the blood are salts, not just sodium, and sodium itself is compounded with 5 other salts (then there are the metals). The mineral contents of human blood plasma or serum1,2 and seawater3 (mg per litre). It is close to a third. But there is something called Dalton's equilibrium (not daltons law of gasses...but referring to his studies of equilibrium of blood mineral content of marine mammals and seawater) which also pertains to saltwater therapy...namely that there is a natural evolutionary adaptation equilibrium between seawater and mammals. I’m a intuitional adherent of this idea... as i try to spend as much time in seawater as i can, and feel healthier for it.

>>>>“I'm not going to fake anyone out and try to pretend that I'm doing this for science.”

i agree. But there are nobler purposes...like money and fame.

>>>>And apparently not many agree with me on this, but to me it sounds like a ****load of fun.

sure...as long as you don’t grow a hole in the back of your neck and end up performing in a aquarium. Actually that could be cool too....couple shows a day...everyone loves you...mermaids...as long as it’s union scale and not for herring it’d be lucrative.

I’ll say it again. It’s brilliant.

 

[SeaJay]

etype once bubbled...
‘saturation diving’...

not decompression...i was referring to the fact that there are studies of long duration full human immersion in seawater.

Ah, yes. I understand.

This long immersion is interesting from that standpoint, in that technically, my tissues will be 100% saturated. Following logic and the understanding of the formulas, it's understandable that even at 10 feet, unlimited exposure to that pressure eventually produces tissues that are 100% saturated.

Yet, the pressure differential between, say 10 feet of depth and 0 feet of depth is not enough to produce a situation where decompression is required. Thus, this TECHNICALLY is "saturation diving," but isn't treated with the same amount of attention as, say, a diver who does saturation diving at 50 fsw or more.

For all intents and purposes, it can be thought that this is not "saturation diving" because of it's unlimited shallow depth. However, you and I both know that technically, saturation eventually occurs no matter what the depth.

I remember stuff about it in the introductory chapters of textbooks on sat diving from a long time ago. I don’t have those books.... But the info has to be out there some where.

It's not been a real concern, because saturated or not, there are no ramifications to the dive when we're talking about ~20 feet or less for the entire dive. Thus, I've really spent my time working on the issues that I WILL encounter.

However, I have spent a little time understanding saturation diving and will no doubt benefit from a further study. Maybe I'll take some books down with me and read during the immersion. That'd freak out the media, wouldn't it?

But there have been unofficial accounts of patial immersion for long term durations...namely those lost at sea. My impression, if memory serves, is that there are no ill effects from long term full immersion in seawater...unlike freshwater.

Interesting that you bring that up... I have talked to a few survivors of shipwrecks... Some of which were immersed at the surface for more than two weeks. In fact, in doing my research, they were the FIRST people I talked to.

They reported that dehydration was their biggest problem, and that while their skin "wrinkled," it appeared to be a mild condition brought on not by superhydration but by hypersalinization... That is, the influx of NaCl and related minerals into the skin cells. It also appears that the skin cells were much more able to cope with this situation than superhydration.

...So I believe that the problem of osmosis and the influx of elements into the body is still a problem, I agree that with 35 ppt salt water, the situation would be bearable. I think that with ~0 ppt salt, the situation could become downright dangerous.

I believe the problem of seawater is not overhydration, but dehydration. As the salt is a desiccant, it will act as a hygroscopic substance until it ‘drys’ the immersed skin... this creates the barrier ..but the 'dry barrier' outer layer will still wick moisture out of the body much like dry air. I will look for more information on this from NIH.

Yep. The research that I've done supports your theory. Interestingly, it also appears that the salt is so efficient at "pulling" water from the body that dehydration happens much faster in the ocean than, say, in the desert. Imagine that... You dehydrate faster in the ocean than hiking though New Mexico.

But this is also why seawater, along with mineral water, is used for physical therapy...as it draws elements from the pores, but does not disturb the celluar structure. So your object will be to not only replenish your fluids...but also your minerals, metals and vitamins. Electrolyte replensiment drinks might actually work against what you are doing...or they might not with proper nutrition. You may come out healthier than you went in.

Hahahahaaa!!! Wouldn't that be a trip?

Here's the killer... And perhaps something that classifies as "research..." Think about this:

If the body reacts to extended stays in salt water in a positive manner like that, does that not support theories of Darwinism? Could that not be offered as supporting evidence that we, at some point or another, actually "came" from the water? Add this to the fact that a human embryo actually has gill slits... And yeah, the evidence begins to point in a certain way.

Before y'all chew me up and spit me out on this, though... I am not a Darwinist... I'm also not a Christian, Jew, or Islamic individual. I am not a religious person at all, in fact. The above is simply a non-partisan, scientific and factual observation.

I would find it very interesting if my overall "health," including heart rate, blood pressure, and the like, actually improved during the Phase 5 dive. What would that say about human beings as a species?

The person who told you that about the drip is wrong...0.9% NaCi, NaCi is just one element of the mineral content, sodium is just one element bonded to others to produce compounds, which is how the salt is composed in the blood....9%NaCi is just suitable for the purposes of IV ...but all the minerals of the ocean and the blood are salts, not just sodium, and sodium itself is compounded with 5 other salts (then there are the metals). The mineral contents of human blood plasma or serum1,2 and seawater3 (mg per litre). It is close to a third. But there is something called Dalton's equilibrium (not daltons law of gasses...but referring to his studies of equilibrium of blood mineral content of marine mammals and seawater) which also pertains to saltwater therapy...namely that there is a natural evolutionary adaptation equilibrium between seawater and mammals. I’m a intuitional adherent of this idea... as i try to spend as much time in seawater as i can, and feel healthier for it.

When I was a child, with a bump or bruise, my parents and grandparents - people who represented many generations of family who've made a living in and around seawater - would tell me to hop in the water. The seawater would cleanse the wound, kill the bacteria, and generally make the wound heal quicker. There is also scientific evidence of the cleansing properties of seawater.

So yeah, I'm right there with you.

My big question to you is... "What do you think the salinity of the water should be?" If we start with 35 ppt, do you think that we're going to have to move up or down in salinity to achieve the "right" balance? Do you think we're going to have to move at all?

I think "seawater" is a good place to start... But what do you think would be the ultimate balance?

But there are nobler purposes...like money and fame.

Hahahahahaaa!!!

I think it would be cool to gain some notariety out of this... An interview with Scuba Diving Magazine, a "hello" on ScubaRadio, a spot on a morning show... You know, that sort of stuff. I believe that'd be a lot of fun.

...But what I'd like to do with that is something beneficial. For example, help raise funds for saturation research or something. I'd like to do more with the "fame" you speak of than just enjoy it personally.

...Of course, assuming that it really happens that way.

...As far as money goes... I don't see money being a big player here. Tanya Streeter didn't get rich from her recent record... Why would I? To gain a little notariety like she did might be possible, and to do nothing positive with it would be a waste. But money? I don't think that's really gonna happen.

...However, I might use some funding from my own company to sponsor the dive... And I might select some "key" advertising spots - you know, like a sticker on the glass during an interview - to advertise my company. Hey, I'm not above it, you know.

 

[KrisB]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Hahahahahaaaa!!! Unfortunately, I must stay submerged the entire dive, and no part of my gear can break the surface - any surface... Not even a bell. Hookah rigs are out, bells are out, and even breaking the surface with a fin is out. I am allowed to switch tanks, however, and surface support is allowed to exchange empties for fulls. Just so long as I'm not attached to the empties when they break the surface.

I don't know the definition of "surface" that you're having to deal with, but if you don't design your latrine right, you might have this issue from a very legalistic standpoint.

Assuming that it's somewhat like a shower stall upside down, you will have a virtually enclosed space where your exhaust bubbles may form a "surface" which your gear will "break" if plastered to the ceiling of the latrine as you had mentioned.

Just a thought...

 

[ScottyK]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Here's the killer... And perhaps something that classifies as "research..." Think about this:

If the body reacts to extended stays in salt water in a positive manner like that, does that not support theories of Darwinism? Could that not be offered as supporting evidence that we, at some point or another, actually "came" from the water? Add this to the fact that a human embryo actually has gill slits... And yeah, the evidence begins to point in a certain way.

If You haven't already, you might find Elaine Morgans' "Aquatic Ape Theory" will provide you with some interesting research opportunities.

In a nutshell, it states that the "missing link" is an aquatic ape that, in evolutionary time, happened in our very recent past. The theory offers explanations for our downturned nostrils, hairlessness, bipedal posture and water babies, among other things.

It's a very hotly debated topic in the scientific community right now. Your reaction to the long emersion in saltwater (the theory has this ape living in an inland sea) might have a practical research application. Here's a link to get you started.

http://www.c-sap.bham.ac.uk/anthropology _pilot/aat.htm

Scott

 

[SeaJay]

...And therein lies the possibility for lots of research... And prehaps some sponsorship opportunities as well.

Interesting.

The "latrine" is actually right-side up. The gear would actually float against the ceiling, likely made of a "mesh" material, such as screen or chicken wire... Or just some holes cut in the top.

The actual "toilet," though, is attached to the bottom. I would be sitting right-side up.

But yeah, you've got a great point about the gear sorta "breaking the surface" right in there. Hm. Better ensure that the "holes" are sufficient, eh? Wouldn't want to get caught up in a technicality. That would be a tragedy.

It's very cool to get y'all's input... And the collective minds work better than one. This is very cool.