Petrel vs. ????

[stuartv]

The DG03 is at DGX now because they bought a boat load of them because lots of tech divers use them in gauge mode as backup computers, they bought a boat load at cheap prices, had the firmware upgraded, and are basically liquidating. I don't know where you're finding the TX-1 for $500 with the cable, but shame on you if you're taking that price without the computer trade in based on the honor system. If that is your mentality now, you won't last long in the diving world. It is very very small and small things like that echo loud and clear.

Another potential is the Seabear H3. It's a bit more expensive than the Petrel by about $100, and that one might actually be able to compete in this battle. Unfortunately it is a very small company out of Austria, and it hasn't actually been released yet. APD trusts them enough to be the HUD on the new Vision CCR so they are quite good and they are built like tanks, the T1 was built for the military and it will be interesting to see how the H3 stacks up. It looks sexy as hell though
H3

To Stuart.
regarding the compass, you said it yourself, you likely are pulling a compass out for general waypoints, not full out navigation, and if you are doing full out navigation, having the compass on a slate is a helluva lot more comfortable for long navs than having to keep your forearm perfectly perpendicular to your body and also means you are stuck looking mostly down instead of ahead of you. The slate video I linked before is perfect for most diving conditions because you can write down all pertinent info on it, draw a basic map of where you are diving so you don't get lost, i.e. on a wreck, draw the basic outline, mark where the anchor is, and orient it properly, and you'll likely never get lost, same with shore diving. Good thing to have, especially since you can communicate with it. Great tool and cheap. I'd be really grumpy if I had to nav off of something on my forearm for any distance. It's nice to have, it's cheap for the companies to put in if they want to, but it's not a selling feature I'd ever plan on using or justifying one computer or another because it has one or doesn't. The Seabear has one because it can actually tether to a GPS buoy on the surface for the military guys and is also designed for underwater combat swimmers that are parachuting to their landing zone, so integrating it in for that makes sense. For what normal people do, it's one of those "nice to have but will probably never use it" type things.
The A300 CS is about $100 more than the list price of a Petrel, about 1.5x when you add AI. It gains you nothing other than the ability to spend about $400-$500 when you decide to go AI, and with the price of a DG03 plus transmitter, if you really care that much about wireless AI, it's about a wash. Wireless AI is just a really expensive solution to a nonexistent problem....

Hey tbone, I am not buying a TX-1 or anything else right now. I don't own a dive computer yet at all, so I don't have anything to trade in for the TX-1. But, after seeing it in person, I personally have shied away from it and all similar sized PDCs because I don't like the idea of something so bulky.

That Seabear looks really cool but they haven't announced a price and won't be out for a while, right?

The price of the A300CS and the Petrel are both $950 from my local LDS. The A300CS seems to be $950 other places, too. And the Petrel seems to generally be $950, too.

As for compasses, you seem to be reinforcing my point. I.e. most of the time, for Rec divers - at least, ones on vacation resort dives - their compass is, at most, used to get a heading and then go. It's not used for full-time navigation. So, for the OP, why would he need any more of a compass than the electronic one in an A300CS or similar computer? I understand why Tech divers, combat troops, etc. would want a better compass, which then makes it pointless to have one in the PDC, but the OP is none of those. Neither am I, for that matter.

Other than that, saying the A300CS gains you nothing (compared to the Petrel) is saying that the smaller, less bulky size is of NO value. As well, the color-coded bar graphs on the sides. And, well, that may be true for you, but it's not true for everyone! I have been eyeing the A300CS in particular because it's so much less bulky than the Petrel. I don't have the money for either, so I'm just window shopping right now, not saying which one I would actually buy.

 

[tbone1004]

Seabear is $950, should be out in a few months
https://www.sub-gravity.com/product/subgravity-h3-dive-computer/

You are getting shafted on the Petrel by your LDS, retail according to Shearwater it is $950CAD, which is about $840 US with current exchange rate....
Cave Adventurers - Shearwater Petrel - OC/CC - Marianna, Florida USA - Never Undersold!
$850 from Edd, so that's importing fees and what not. $950 is too much, and you clearly didn't search very hard because I couldn't actually find an online shop that had them for $950.... Didn't look particularly hard because the first 4 I checked had it for $850

Re. Compass, have you ever tried to turn on a compass on a computer? It isn't rocket science, but it involves button pushing, I would rather grab my slate that I'm already using to write down dive limits, pressure readings, any notes that I have from cool stuff I saw etc, and miraculously have my compass on the back side of it, then fiddle with a computer. One bolt snap on a D-ring and you're good to go, it's faster, easier, cheaper, more accurate. Done. The digital compasses are very accurate, too accurate for most diving, digital is also harder to read than analog, that's why your car gauges are all analog not digital readouts, but the slate compass combo beats out digital compasses any day of the week, the one exception are the ones built into the HUD's, those are nice, but they just have a scrolling wheel in one line, they don't change their view to read out the bearing.

What do you need bar graphs for? SPG's are color coded with safety zones if you want them, and the Rec Nitrox mode on the Petrel gives you a color coded NDL readout, Petrel has a bigger screen and is hardly bulky..... It's not small, but it's not huge, the Predator was bulky. Petrel is the right size. You don't wear it like a wrist watch, you typically wear them up on your forearm close to your elbow so it's out of the way.



I dive with my slate and Petrel reversed, but that's the general idea, it's not bulky at all.


The Predator was big, that is the one on the right. That was a big honking hunk of a computer.


xDeep on the left, Petrel on the right. Again, it looks bigger than it is, it isn't that bad.

If you want watch style, I'd hold out for the Seabear H3, it'll blow most of the others out of the park, the T1 is the only other computer that can realistically give the Petrel a run for its money in the same price range for the same features. It's a badass computer, but availability in the US is the problem, much bigger following in Europe.

 

[stuartv]

You are getting shafted on the Petrel by your LDS, retail according to Shearwater it is $950CAD, which is about $840 US with current exchange rate....
Cave Adventurers - Shearwater Petrel - OC/CC - Marianna, Florida USA - Never Undersold!
$850 from Edd, so that's importing fees and what not. $950 is too much, and you clearly didn't search very hard because I couldn't actually find an online shop that had them for $950.... Didn't look particularly hard because the first 4 I checked had it for $850

You are right. I had searched before and found them for $850. I was misremembering combined with seeing the $950 price on my LDS website.

It IS still a bulky piece of kit, though! It'll be nice someday when they have them down to 5mm thickness with a flexible OLED display that wraps around your arm.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

To satisfy Leon Scamahorns compulsion to have the best of the best for his products . . .

Snort.

Gurgle.

Chortle.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry, but I'm making some strange sounds.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2014 at 01:28 PM ----------

Because he spent many thousands of dollars on Atomic computers when we all said "buy a Predator". He had great luck with the Atomic computer, as in, they only went back to the factory 2 or 3 times, and he got half what he paid for them when he sold them.

Awww, someone remembers! I did have good luck with my Cobalts: I got two years of great diving (including a lot of deep air multi deco gas dives) out of the one I bought new for $1200 and at the end of all that I had a brand new Box O Cobalt because AA replaced it under warranty. I think I sold it for a bit over $1000. The other one I bought used never had anything go wrong with it and I sold for what I paid for it. Not a bad outcome, but yeah...the Petrel's better. The Predator's SAFT issues and size aside, also better.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2014 at 01:31 PM ----------

I have seen maybe 50 Cobalts. Maybe 25% of them will fail on any given trip. In fact, maybe 25% of all hosed AI computers will fail on any given trip. Why? Because folks aren't careful connecting and disconnecting the hose, and they get a drop of water in the pressure cell. That is instant death for a hosed AI computer.

Sorry, wrong. You can dive a Cobalt well past 200' disconnected from the hose just fine; the sensor's not water-sensitive.

 

[victorzamora]

Can you be more specific about this? I have looked at pictures of the 300 display (and the Petrel) and the info on the 300 display all seems very easy to read and intuitive to me. I like all the colors. The color-coded bar graphs for N2 saturation and for Ascent Rate seem nice and easy to read at a glance - particularly versus the Petrel where you have to focus on it and read a number (the NDL) to have an idea of what your N2 loading is (and then, it's by inference).

The pictures you're seeing of the A300CS are professionally-photographed with digitally-enhanced screens in the air and they're zoomed in big time. Considering the A300CS is as small as it is and tries to cram that much info in its screen, it's going to get a little cramped. The Petrel has a semi-customizable data layout, so you can add to or remove data you think you want and you can cycle through the bottom row accessing more info while maintaining the critical stuff. The Petrel's bigger screen is more readable, due to the screen quality and simple real-estate. Especially in Rec Mode, a blind man can read a Petrel. What I meant by "high-end tech" was that the technology behind the screen is theoretically awesome (OLED).

This strikes me as very similar to saying "my wife is fully capable of checking Nitrox percentage and calculating MOD and setting her PDC for Nitrox. Does she not deserve the ability to dive Nitrox because she doesn't have a Nitrox card?" With all the emphasis around this board on getting the right education, with frequent implication that if you have not taken an official class from a certified instructor, then you don't have sufficient education, I'm surprised to see anyone here promoting the concept of a diver making up their own ascent profiles without official training in doing such.

Not at all. I'm not saying she should be allowed to go on staged decompression dives to 330m just because she understands Gradient Factors. I'm simply stating that she should be allowed to set her gradient factors as she so chooses based on her knowledge. In Rec mode on the Petrel, this is done for you by "conservatism" levels....but it still tells you what your GFs are for each level. I dive more-and-less conservative GF settings than a couple buddies of mine, because I prefer them for my diving. They give me more favorable deco curves and get me out of the water feeling better.

I haven't taken my Nitrox class yet. But, I have read the book and taken college Chemistry. Should I save the money and just let my Nitrox certified buddy get both our fills for me? I know how to set my computer to the FO2 that the tank is labeled.

That's not what I'm saying at all, and is, in fact, inflammatory. College Chemistry and dive physiology are drastically different. Having said that, diving Nitrox isn't all that scary. If you understand EAD, MOD, and ppO2 properly I don't see why every diver shouldn't be diving Nitrox on any dive that would benefit from it....no matter how new they are. I think my wife's 7th dive was on Nitrox.

I'm not sure I understand. My point was that he might rarely use the compass and, on the 300, it doesn't take up any room on the display if you're not using it, so does it really matter that it's not as accurate or that it burns a lot of battery when you do use it?

My point was that WHEN you use the integrated compass, it blocks you from seeing the information that's actually useful. Sometimes, you need a compass for long-ish swims and I want to have the rest of my data available to me. Also, it kills your battery AND is inaccurate. To me, it's simply not worth having and I can't comprehend any convoluted series of scenarios in which an inaccurate compass that kills your battery and removes visibility of critical info is considered acceptable.

That is definitely handy to know. And that's a common problem across many of the 300s? Or your experience is just with 1 or 2 of them or what? They claim 40 - 60 hours of dive operation per battery. That seems like the kind of thing they would fix with a firmware update. No?

It's a common problem across the A300CSs. I don't care what they claim, that must be on low, with no AI, with no touching of any buttons or sounding of any alarms or calculating of any parameters. There have been people getting less than a day's dives out of the A300CS. Firmware isn't the issue, it's math. CR2s just don't hold that much juice.

And this is your direct experience either from using an A300CS yourself or actually diving with someone using one? Or is this a commentary on wireless AI in general? I ask because I have spent a lot (too much!) time reading about wireless AI, and talked to as many dive shop employees as I could (at multiple shops) and based on all the anecdotal evidence regarding wireless AI in general, it seems like the consensus is that they used to be problematic but nowadays they are solid. Loss of reception, when it happens, is generally for only a few seconds at most and almost never a case of the connection just dying irrecoverably (unless the battery dies, which is a maintenance issue and shouldn't happen - particularly since all the wireless AI DCs I have looked at will give you a low battery warning for the transmitter as well as the PDC itself).

My AI comments are second-hand from A300CSs, as well as first- and second-hand knowledge of many other (current-gen) AI units. It's simply NOT a replacement for a mechanical SPG....not yet. There are plenty of stories of batteries dying prematurely, connection points failing, sensors failing, transmission/reception failures, computers locking-up upon sync, computers locking-up upon mid-dive sync, computers locking you out upon mid-dive resync, etc. There are a select few people that have had decent results with AI, but they're the exception and NOT the rule. Nobody that I've heard of has had good enough results to safely replace their mechanical SPG. So that's increased clutter and increased failure points. You claimed "less hoses" which is true, unless you put the transmitter on a hose as is so often done.

On the topic of battery warnings: Lithium battery chemistries (what is most often found in PDC and PDC-transmitters) have ultra-flat discharge curves, meaning that anything short of ultra-sensitive electronics simply can't detect a true "low battery" the way they're detecting low batteries. You can have a battery go from >70% charge to inoperably dead in minutes.....and that's not theory, it happens with some frequency.

 

[stuartv]

The pictures you're seeing of the A300CS are professionally-photographed with digitally-enhanced screens in the air and they're zoomed in big time. Considering the A300CS is as small as it is and tries to cram that much info in its screen, it's going to get a little cramped.

I understand that it's smaller than a Petrel screen. But, isn't it still bigger, with the same amount of info, as the typical wristwatch size/style DC? When I looked at them at my LDS, it looked like the 300 was bigger/easier to read than ones like the Aeris Manta or Oceanic OCS/OCi size computers. IOW, probably big enough to be easy for ME to read and maybe the OP and many other people.

Not at all. I'm not saying she should be allowed to go on staged decompression dives to 330m just because she understands Gradient Factors. I'm simply stating that she should be allowed to set her gradient factors as she so chooses based on her knowledge. In Rec mode on the Petrel, this is done for you by "conservatism" levels....but it still tells you what your GFs are for each level. I dive more-and-less conservative GF settings than a couple buddies of mine, because I prefer them for my diving. They give me more favorable deco curves and get me out of the water feeling better.


That's not what I'm saying at all, and is, in fact, inflammatory. College Chemistry and dive physiology are drastically different. Having said that, diving Nitrox isn't all that scary. If you understand EAD, MOD, and ppO2 properly I don't see why every diver shouldn't be diving Nitrox on any dive that would benefit from it....no matter how new they are. I think my wife's 7th dive was on Nitrox.

My apologies. I didn't mean to be inflammatory. My point was that we were talking about a generic Rec diver being able to set their own GF. You used your wife as an example of someone who should be able to do this for herself even though (you implied) she doesn't have an "Advanced card". So, the implication is, a person who has no more training than the class for the OW cert should be allowed to set whatever GF they want, with no further actual training. Again, I may just not understand what I'm saying due to my inexperience, but that seems to be on par to saying that someone who has completed OW certification and who was done their own studying of all the material appropriate for basic Nitrox certification should be able to dive Nitrox without actually taking a formal Nitrox certification course.

Gradient Factors seem like the kind of thing that you would not just tell a new OW cert to set however they feel like. And yes, I have read all about GF and I believe I understand what they are and how you use them. But, as I said, I have done the same thing for Nitrox. So, do I think I know what I need to know to dive with my own GF settings and using Nitrox? Yes. Would I? No. Why? Because I also know that I am a prime example of not knowing what I don't know, so I will insist on getting formal training in these things before I dive with them. Which also seems to be a common theme here on SB - "you don't know what you don't know, so don't attempt anything you haven't been trained for." Thus my expressed surprise that you seem to be an advocate of people diving with their own GF settings with no more training that a basic OW cert. 'Cause you KNOW that if you give someone a computer that can have the settings mucked with (even if it requires changing from Rec mode first), there are people who WILL muck with them. "Hey, look! If I set this to 100/100, it gives me way more bottom time! Cool!"

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Thus my expressed surprise that you seem to be an advocate of people diving with their own GF settings with no more training that a basic OW cert. 'Cause you KNOW that if you give someone a computer that can have the settings mucked with (even if it requires changing from Rec mode first), there are people who WILL muck with them. "Hey, look! If I set this to 100/100, it gives me way more bottom time! Cool!"

Newsflash: you don't need formal training to correctly set GFs on a dive computer, you need to understand how GFs work. I don't think that's necessarily covered in any recreational course nor is it covered specifically in many tech courses. Where it is covered is in plenty of publicly-available sources, any of which a diver with a solid grasp on OW skills should be able to figure out. If they get it wrong or dive in unthinkingly, that's their problem not the gear's fault.

 

[tbone1004]

not teaching nitrox as part of basic OW is idiotic, especially in todays society. Teaching Nitrox is an extra like 2 hours of lecture, few hours of homework, and can be incorporated onto the same dives. This is why we certify our divers as NAUI Nitrox Divers, they get one card. It's really not that complicated, don't blow your PO2, and know your EAD so you can use standard air tables for NDL diving. Not that hard.

Gradient factors aren't hard either, though somewhat less important for NDL diving since they are primarily for decompression times. You are able to set conservatism settings in most nitrox computers, so setting the GF's is no different, just a little more complicated. With rec nitrox mode on the petrel this is made easier by giving you the standard 3 options for conservatism which correlates to a specific gradient factor.
Low-45/95
Med-40-85
High 35/75
These are actually really conservative numbers, since the 45/95 correlates to the PADI NDL tables almost directly, you can set the safety stops to off, 3, 4, 5 mins or adapt which starts with 3 mins and gives you a 5 min if you cut the NDL's close or go below 100ft.

 

[RonR]

<snip>
I've never seen a Shearwater fail, unless it ran out of battery on a dive. This has happened to me, Shearwater has since fixed the problem. With a firmware upgrade. I didn't even have to send it in.

I have seen maybe 50 Cobalts. Maybe 25% of them will fail on any given trip. In fact, maybe 25% of all hosed AI computers will fail on any given trip. Why? Because folks aren't careful connecting and disconnecting the hose, and they get a drop of water in the pressure cell. That is instant death for a hosed AI computer. It would be for a SPG also, but no one takes their SPG off the hose in the middle of a dive trip...<snip>

Let me correct a misapprehension. The Cobalt, and I expect most other hosed AI computers, uses a ceramic pressure sensor for high pressure. This is not affected by water, and it is perfectly fine to dive the Cobalt with the hose disconnected. We certainly don't see that kind of failure rate, but if you have see failures on your boat, that is not the explanation.

It is very true that the more features you add to any product, the more potential for problems. The Shearwater, which is a really great computer, keeps things very simple- a strong selling point for their customers.

Ron

 

[victorzamora]

I understand that it's smaller than a Petrel screen. But, isn't it still bigger, with the same amount of info, as the typical wristwatch size/style DC? When I looked at them at my LDS, it looked like the 300 was bigger/easier to read than ones like the Aeris Manta or Oceanic OCS/OCi size computers. IOW, probably big enough to be easy for ME to read and maybe the OP and many other people.

They're easy enough to read, mostly.....but in the sun or on bright days in clear water, it can take a little focus to get the screen to clear up. And it's not a matter of being "miserable" to read, the Petrel's is simply much better.

My apologies. I didn't mean to be inflammatory. My point was that we were talking about a generic Rec diver being able to set their own GF. You used your wife as an example of someone who should be able to do this for herself even though (you implied) she doesn't have an "Advanced card". So, the implication is, a person who has no more training than the class for the OW cert should be allowed to set whatever GF they want, with no further actual training. Again, I may just not understand what I'm saying due to my inexperience, but that seems to be on par to saying that someone who has completed OW certification and who was done their own studying of all the material appropriate for basic Nitrox certification should be able to dive Nitrox without actually taking a formal Nitrox certification course.

Gradient Factors seem like the kind of thing that you would not just tell a new OW cert to set however they feel like. And yes, I have read all about GF and I believe I understand what they are and how you use them. But, as I said, I have done the same thing for Nitrox. So, do I think I know what I need to know to dive with my own GF settings and using Nitrox? Yes. Would I? No. Why? Because I also know that I am a prime example of not knowing what I don't know, so I will insist on getting formal training in these things before I dive with them. Which also seems to be a common theme here on SB - "you don't know what you don't know, so don't attempt anything you haven't been trained for." Thus my expressed surprise that you seem to be an advocate of people diving with their own GF settings with no more training that a basic OW cert. 'Cause you KNOW that if you give someone a computer that can have the settings mucked with (even if it requires changing from Rec mode first), there are people who WILL muck with them. "Hey, look! If I set this to 100/100, it gives me way more bottom time! Cool!"

My point isn't that all divers SHOULD modify their own GFs.....it's that divers with the knowledge should be allowed to. My point isn't that ALL divers should, it's that ALL divers should be allowed to think for themselves. Expecting training/certification just to change the conservatism on your computer is a little absurd. Knowledge is all that is needed.

Do you have mask-donning training? How about a boat-diver specialty? Speargun diver specialty? How about split-fin or paddle-fin specialties? Computer diver specialty? I don't have any of that crap, but still do it. I'm not advocating diving Eagle's Nest with no certification, but changing a setting on your PDC doesn't need a cert or training.....simply knowledge.