Personal Incident

[b1gcountry]

Tom- I'm not gonna address your report and don't take this the wrong way, but I'm trying to figure out how someone with an average of 10 dives per/yr and admitingly doesn't get to dive much becomes even a DM-C?????? Definitely need more diving experience, IMHO, before even thinking of DM'ing. With more diving experience, what happened would've been a walk in the park.
As always YMMV

And why exactly are you critizizing my diving experience/ability? What exactly is this based on???? I said I have over 100 dives, and that I had about 50dives last year. In you're opinion, what is a reasonable total for someone before they become a DM?

As to me saying I don't get to dive too much: In my opinion, I DON'T. If you live where I do, it is impossible to get more than about 75 dives a year without making diving your life. How many dives do you do each year?

Most people I've met have had way less experience before starting their DM-candidacy (which takes ~2 years, btw). If you go by PADI standards, it's just 20 dives...not that I necessarily agree with that, either. I'm not trying to be militant towards you, but that was rather offensive.

The point of this whole thread is just that something bad happened to me during a dive. I had two choices: ignore it, or try to learn from it. How many people here can say they don't have small things like this happen to them in the course of their diving careers...even after diving 10, 20, 30 years. I posted this because yes, it did happen, and no, I don't want to try to forget about it or convince myself it wasn't my fault. If something bad happens when I dive-and it doesn't happen often-I want to work it out and try to prevent it the next time...even if that means pointing the finger at myself, and saying, hey, I screwed up. IMHO, THAT is what makes someone a good at anything they do in life...

Now I will admit it. I should not have left my wife to tell the DM we were ending our dive. I could have just gone up, which might have caused a little confusion, or I could have swam to him with her, which would have used up just as much of her air anyway, but wouldn't have made her as mervous. I don't think it was a huge screw up...most of the buddies I've dove with before would have been fine, but in this situation, something went wrong. Not majorly wrong, but enough for me to try to learn from my mistakes and prevent worse things from happening in the future. I thought SB would be a decent place to get some unbiased opinions from fellow divers...and I did from some. I also got some people being a little too judgemental, and I don't appreciate that.

Thank you, and sorry for the rant

 

[francousteau]

And why exactly are you critizizing my diving experience/ability? What exactly is this based on???? I said I have over 100 dives, and that I had about 50dives last year. In you're opinion, what is a reasonable total for someone before they become a DM?

As to me saying I don't get to dive too much: In my opinion, I DON'T. If you live where I do, it is impossible to get more than about 75 dives a year without making diving your life. How many dives do you do each year?

Dude, ya gotcher panties in a twist. If you think I was criticizing, I didn't. But now that you mention it, IF your experience/abilties were soooooo good, how the heck do ya leave someone (your wife, no less) who say's their low on air, or miss an ooa signal? If you think that 100 dives over 10+ yrs is a lot . . . it's not. I put in more than 70 local dives per/yr both salt & fresh, but that's not the point either. Point is that 50 dives over 9+ yrs and then your 50 last year shouldn't qualify for DM. Period!! However, just PADI (put another dollar in) and collect yer card. :mooner:

 

[Karibelle]

I guess the lesson I've really learned from this is when I have another miscue underwater I want to learn from, I will talk to someone I respect. Privately.

Thank you.
Goodbye.

Don't give up on the board - especially when there's a miscue... often, you just have to put on your flame-retardant vest and read. Not necessarily respond. As difficult as it is sometimes to interpret hand signals underwater, interpreting intent of a poster just from the written word can be even more challenging. Don't take it personally - it's likely not meant to be personal. And if it IS, that says more about the poster than it does about you, don't you think? Regardless of what sort of response you get, you're still just a guy who had a situation and who is trying to learn from it, and that's not a bad seat to be in.

On the question you asked, you've received a lot more positive input than not, here, and from the sounds of it, have given a lot of thought to your situation because of it. That's a good thing.

kari

 

[b1gcountry]

So that's what happens when someone goes on your ignore list...cool Feature.:14:

Thanks Kari, you're right. You read one inflammatory post, and all the others you read afterwards seem condescending too. Thanks again to the people who really thought through their advice.

 

[sunnyboy]

You don't want advice. You want a pat on the head and a "good boy". They are NOT the same thing.

You RECEIVED some good advice. You just didn't like it because you wanted the advice to confirm your belief that you were A-OK and everyone else was all wrong.

Take your fingers out of your ears, quite hollering "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and re-read this entire thread. Your answers await.

-S

 

[Vayu]

Plain and simple. If you want to keep your wife, don't lose her underwater. Sending your buddy up alone so you can go notify a DM is not good behavior. Just go up with her, theyll figure it out. Glad you guys are ok.

I didn't read the rest of the posts, but don't worry about scubaboard antagonism. It's part of the learning experience. Trust me.

No accident, no harm, no foul. Keep learning from this type of incident.

Forget to say.
It's worth it to invest on horn or tank banger. Save time and air when you need to call other divers.
But honk might chase big fish away

I have to respectfully disagree here. Situational awareness and being close to a buddy you know is better than these toys. You can't tell where the sound is coming from underwater.

 

[b1gcountry]

I got a lot of good advice, and I've said what I've done wrong. Here's what I've taken away from this so far:

I need to develop better communication with my wife. Some people have a better time "getting" hand signals than others. My wife and I need to go diving together more often so we can better understand each other underwater.

I shouldn't have left her to swim down to the DM. I was trying to do something I considered beneficial, in informing the DM, while at the same time preventing her from having to burn extra gas, and I focused on those two benefits without considering how it would make her feel about it.

I'm also realizing that this behavior has also been reinforced in the past by me doing similar things with other buddies and not having a problem with it. For example, while diving at Mermet, with a group, one guy dropped his flashlight off the 80' platform. I spotted it, and told the others to stick together while I went down to 110' to get it. I was equipped and prepared to do this, and the others weren't, so I went and grabbed it alone. The big difference was that they understood what I was doing, and were ok with it, while my wife did not / was not.

We need to talk more before the dive to plan what we are going to do, and to talk about what each other is comfortable with each dive. I'm not a very talkative guy. I usually plan things in my head. I'm going to have to let her in more and give her a more active role in planning/leading dives.

Once she started getting nervous and grabbing onto me, we would have been better off aborting the safety stop. It would not have been ideal, but it would have been better than what happened in the end. I didn't want to set a bad example of skipping safety stop, and I was trying to "DIVE THE PLAN" since the plan called for a 3min safety stop. I guess the moral here is that once the dive starts deviating from the plan (ie, I left her and she got nervous), you have to re-evaluate the plan, and make adjustments if necessary.

I described some things poorly to start out with...I said she reached her LOA point, I should have said she reached 700 psi, which was our turn point for the dive. Dumpster Diver also misinterpreted the hand holding as a _cause_ of the problem, but the hand holding _was_ the problem (at least one of them). I got some advice based on my faulty description, so I had to try to explain myself better. I was trying to better explain the situation, so everyone could understand what happened. I was not trying to stick my fingers in my ears, and ignore the advice I was given. I apologize if it came across that way.

At the same time though, I reserve the right to accept or question any advice at my own discretion. I disagreed about it being appropriate to schedule a dive vacation with someone with <25 dives, so I said so, and stated my reasons. The "advice" that I am an incompetent diver who has no business being a Divemaster Candidate was never advice. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know how I dive. All he knows about me is this one incomplete description of my worst dive in five years.

I started this thread thinking I would get advice about how to deal with someone grabbing onto you, how to deal with them, and maintaining buouyancy in this situation without having to focus on your depth guage to do so. It turned into something very different, and that's cool too. Anything else I should add to this list?

Tom

 

[sunnyboy]

Good post, Tom. Remember the mantra - Stop, Think, Act.

I'd say one thing to rehearse with new dive buddies is total familiarity with the STOP hand signal. Way too many incidents start - or get out of hand - because the divers do not STOP and take time to think about the situation.

So, specific advice for the occasion where a dive buddy grabs on? Give him or her the STOP signal, and make sure they recognize it and STOP. Of course, if they are already in panic then it's too late for this step, so you must get tuned to giving the STOP signal early in a prospective incident - i.e. at the first sign of trouble.

Too many divers want to blow off the first sign of trouble, but if you follow the accident posts, too many of them occur after the second or third problem. Even if you elect to continue the dive after some small problem, by stopping first, you have taken the time to assess the situation.

As to your other point - the safety stop. I no longer do the "3 min at 15 ft". On all no-deco dives, I start doing 1 min stops (this includes slow ascent time to the next stop) starting at 40 ft. (50 ft if I go past 80' on the dive). 40-1, 30-1, 20-1, 10-1. That is OK although if you have the gas, spend 3-5 mins at 20 and 10 ft, then SLOW ascent to the surface. Adjust your gas management to allow for this, and be sure and ALWAYS try and do this. In addition to practicing buoyancy and trim, it helps clear you out better than the single 20' stop, IMO.

Now - when the dive has taken a bad turn and you end up with the panic-stricken diver putting you in a choke hold? Well, that's when you manage the situation as best you can. I would agree with all other recommendations on this though - stay with the buddy unless you CANNOT (i.e. do not put yourself in peril to save a buddy). But, if you are on a no-deco dive and you can both safely surface together - then stay with the buddy. If they are in trouble, they will need you most once they surface.

Cheers,

-S

 

[jchaplain]

Anything else I should add to this list?
Tom

It's all part of continued learning. Every incident where someone doesn't get hurt, ( and we all have them,) adds to the skills and experience level and makes you a better diver, so keep at it and don't let any critisizm on this board bug you. Thanks for sharing your experience. Thats how others learn, review their own readiness, and perhaps not repeat mistakes.

John C.

 

[K_girl]

Excellent objective self-evaluation bigcountry and thanks so much for sharing. I have to agree with one poster who said your wife was not in full-on panic. She knew enough not to bolt to the surface, she went for your octopus and not your primary, she wasn't grabbing at your mask and reg, just holding on tightly to your hand.

I would say she was anxious about her situation rather than panicking. It was a different situation from her standpoint than the flashlight situation you described. The situation involved her personally and her being low on air, not the retrieval of an inanimate object in another location which by comparison, is not on the same level as an LOA situation. She felt the best thing for her in her situation was to stick with you, her alternate source of air, which is if I was LOA, I'd do the same thing. You're doing the exact opposite of what is practiced in an LOA situation, you're swimming away from her. Reaching an LOA situation is not the point in time you try to start giving complex signals that you may have never practiced with her.

It's possible you may have been able to save the safety stop instead of blowing it off like you talked about. It sounds like you were getting a little anxious as well. I wasn't there, so I'm not sure just how difficult it might have been for you at the time. Turned out she really wasn't as LOA as she thought and I don't think if I were you, I would have looked at her SPG at that point either, because I would have assumed that she understands her gauge or is actually completely out of air, so messing around with her equipment would just waste precdious time and focus. She probably picked-up on your own anxiousness because you are trying to get her to let go and get away from her. Getting away from another person is not what is practiced in a LOA sitatuion. Perhaps you could have taken her hand and moved it to grip your your BC strap like is practiced in an air-sharing situation and given her signals to relax. At least, that's what I taught to do in my training classes.

I empathize because I had some miscommunication with my sister underwater and we've had to talk it out and things are really good now. Experience has helped a lot too. I think underwater communication with someone you are really close to is difficult when you first start diving together because there is a certain amount of anticipated or expected behavior and that makes it even more difficult than diving with a stranger. However, if you can talk out those difficulties, you can actually make a better dive team in the long run which is now the case with my sister - our underwater communication is excellent.

It sounds to me like you and your wife are going to be fine.