Past NDL. And then this???

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Ok. Now I see. English is not my native language. Hence I interpreted no 3) as time to spend on the next deco stop and not time to reach the next deco!!!

I thought the computer was telling me: Look, you will have to spend 4 mins deco at 3 meters while it was telling me, within 4 minutes you have to be at 3 meters ! It makes a lot much more sense to me now.

Thanks a million to help me see that

Someone already mentioned this earlier, but I will repeat it because it stuck out to me when I read it also. I think your first reading was correct and I would find an instructor whose first language is the same as your own to go through the directions with you. Possibly contact the computer co and ask if they have the directions in your native language.

To be honest to you guys right now I am not that much interested to learn/compare/duplicate different algorithms - all these fall way too much outside my current level and to be frank I don't see the point as my target is no deco dives.



My subsurface has VPM only up to +4 as discussed by others earlier.
VPM+4 went to deco much earlier i.e. at about 7minutes (25m) in my dive compared to my computer that went to deco at 26minutes (20m). BUT by the time I reached 3-4 meters (remember my slow "ascent") with VPM+4 I had "only" 7 minutes deco to go compared to 30+ minutes with my computer.

I think this makes sense and as a fellow warm water vacation diver with limited experience, I can relate to a certain degree. One piece that is very valuable about the various models is what Devon described as the 'red flags' written into the RGBM. If your NDLs seem low compared to fellow dive buddies (as was the case in the dive you describe) use that as a signal that some of your dive technique was flawed that day/week. Ask your dive buddies to take mental note of your buoyancy and trim and give you feedback later- or even in the water during the dive with some predetermined signals.

I say, stay focused on your choices that not only led you into deco, but led you to 35 mins of deco when you had the opportunity to have only 7. There is no reason to believe that getting a different computer or diving nitrox will do any good until you learn the actual lessons of this dive, which are that you ignored your computer when it was telling you precisely what to do.

It does not appear as if you communicated with your buddies that you needed to end the dive and that you had a deco obligation. (If you did communicate with them and at least one of them wouldn't end their own dive to ascend with you, find new biddies) I recommend developing some signals with them that allow you to communicate your general NDL situation. The buddies I dive with and I keep it really simple. We'll make circles around our computer with our index finger and do a thumbs up. Often we follow that up with a signal that means, "I plan to go up a little." (thumb and index finger abut an inch or two apart) If we are below 10 mins of NDL, we flash the number of NDL mins we have. As a buddy, I now have awareness that I need to go up with my buddy, why they want to ascend to a shallower depth, and that we may need end the dive if the NDLs don't increase enough to their liking.

I also recommend debriefing your experience with your dive buddies from this trip. If they are not uncomfortable with the DM's response to the deco time you had remaining once back on the boat, then find other buddies. Seriously. Having someone else clear your computer for you is beyond irresponsible.

Last, make sure you know how to use the "plan" mode on your computer if it has one. Some even allow you to enter a hypothetical SI into it, so you can plan a dive based on a specific SI. This allows you to see how much of an SI you want so you can do the next dive you want to do. I will often communicate this to my buddy, too.

I commend you for sharing your story on SB and I know I have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you for posting.
 
Someone already mentioned this earlier, but I will repeat it because it stuck out to me when I read it also. I think your first reading was correct and I would find an instructor whose first language is the same as your own to go through the directions with you.

I forgot to mention this earlier. The moment I sent that post I realised that my "second" reading couldn't be correct - as the dive progress that time did increase, so obviously it is the deco time obligation and not the time to ascent to the next stop. Time to ascent / ascent rate has to be extracted from the total time to surface being deco time + ascent time+ safety stop and anyway now I know that it should be close to the maximum allowed 10meters/min.

It does not appear as if you communicated with your buddies that you needed to end the dive and that you had a deco obligation. (If you did communicate with them and at least one of them wouldn't end their own dive to ascend with you, find new biddies)
My "buddies" (I'd better describe them as fellow divers) were people that I first met in that trip and I haven't got any contact with them since then. Nice chaps but that was it. I did signal the DM about going near the NDL, going to deco and then that I was going up. The group followed me assenting but even slower than me.

Having someone else clear your computer for you is beyond irresponsible.
Another thing I didn't make clear. The least of my worries was my computer's "health". I haven't even thought about this trick, neither I did realise that my computer was going to be off for several hours following that. The moment I was on the boat the DM asked to see my computer, I gave it to him, he took it and descented. Only afterwards I realised what he was doing. Everything happened like it was their SOP.

Throughout the event everybody behaved like they knew that everything was going to be ok. I was worried but seeing them so relaxed, made me think that maybe I was overreacting. Luckily it all went well.
 
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I forgot to mention this earlier. The moment I sent that post I realised that my "second" reading couldn't be correct - as the dive progress that time did increase, so obviously it is the deco time obligation and not the time to ascent to the next stop. Time to ascent / ascent rate has to be extracted from the total time to surface being deco time + ascent time+ safety stop and anyway now I know that it should be close to the maximum allowed 10meters/min.


My "buddies" (I'd better describe them as fellow divers) were people that I first met in that trip and I haven't got any contact with them since then. Nice chaps but that was it. I did signal the DM about going near the NDL, going to deco and then that I was going up. The group followed me assenting but even slower than me.


Another thing I didn't make clear. The least of my worries was my computer's "health". I haven't even thought about this trick, neither I did realise that my computer was going to be off for several hours following that. The moment I was on the boat the DM asked to see my computer, I gave it to him, he took it and descented. Only afterwards I realised what he was doing. Everything happened like it was their SOP.

Throughout the event everybody behaved like they knew that everything was going to be ok. I was worried but seeing them so relaxed, made me think that maybe I was overreacting. Luckily it all went well.
If you take nothing else from this, take this from it - "luckily it all went well".

You bought a tool (the dive computer) to help you manage your NDL but then didn't follow its guidance (if you read the manual you will see a section on ascent rate showing the various arrows and the corresponding speeds). Ideally you normally aim for up to 10m/min (which will show the 2 arrows - if it shows none or one you are too slow, if it shows three you are too quick) until close to the surface where you may chose to slow up.

Allowing your DM to clear the deco on the computer and dive the following day is dangerous - you and your computer have absolutely no idea of your nitrogen loading.
 
Throughout the event everybody behaved like they knew that everything was going to be ok. I was worried but seeing them so relaxed, made me think that maybe I was overreacting. Luckily it all went well.

Some of the VERY worst divers I've met were dive 'pros'.

There's an awful lot of very clueless 'pros' around the globe that threw down a credit card and got a bunch of ratings in weeks or months...

....big problem is, many of them get utterly self-deluded that they're actually all-knowing dive 'Gods'...

Most of them know next to nothing, make it up as they go along and are merely riding a wave of gross ignorance and complacency en-route to eventually hurting someone who was foolish enough to trust them.

Important lesson.... dive 'pros' can be fallible. Let them earn your trust.

YOU learned about safe diving in your Open Water course. If a dive pro is breaking the basic principles and recommendations that all divers are taught, then it's probably an important sign to observe...
 
I forgot to mention this earlier. The moment I sent that post I realised that my "second" reading couldn't be correct - as the dive progress that time did increase, so obviously it is the deco time obligation and not the time to ascent to the next stop. Time to ascent / ascent rate has to be extracted from the total time to surface being deco time + ascent time+ safety stop and anyway now I know that it should be close to the maximum allowed 10meters/min.


My "buddies" (I'd better describe them as fellow divers) were people that I first met in that trip and I haven't got any contact with them since then. Nice chaps but that was it. I did signal the DM about going near the NDL, going to deco and then that I was going up. The group followed me assenting but even slower than me.


Another thing I didn't make clear. The least of my worries was my computer's "health". I haven't even thought about this trick, neither I did realise that my computer was going to be off for several hours following that. The moment I was on the boat the DM asked to see my computer, I gave it to him, he took it and descented. Only afterwards I realised what he was doing. Everything happened like it was their SOP.

Throughout the event everybody behaved like they knew that everything was going to be ok. I was worried but seeing them so relaxed, made me think that maybe I was overreacting. Luckily it all went well.

My comment was not about your computer's health, it was about your health.

"Dive buddy" is a term for the person you are diving with. It is not a term of endearment describing them as your friends. Those guys were your dive buddies.

Do you still feel as if you were overreacting? It is very hard to determine what your learnings from this experience have been by reading your replies. What do you feel is the most important new information you now have?
 
Hello, I am a beginner with AOW certificate and about 50 dives.

Personally I think all divers ought to be trained to handle this kind of deco, that way they have to understand this stuff to pass the course and will experience a deco or simulated deco ascent in controlled circumstances. I don't consider that 'technical' just diving. A PADI entry level Tec (40?) course or TDI Decompression Procedures course will teach this. Or BSAC Sports Diver, or probably some CMAS type course.

I am not familiar with BSAC or CMAS courses, but surely pushing limits deeper (to 40 or 45 meters through a PADI or TDI class) isn't the right answer for a beginner diver with 50 dives.

I still consider myself very much a beginner diver, but I found myself frequently bumping up against NDLs and "fixed" the problem by switching to Nitrox. Later I found myself bumping up against NDLs again, and I decided then it was time for more training. In hindsight, it was too early to start. This was after approximately 130 dives (I think the minimum for the class was 100, so I barely qualified), a couple dozen of them in doubles. I had also taken a Fundamentals class in this time. It took another few months and another 30 or so doubles dives to get to a point where I had the skills required for the class. I also have an instructor who would not let me progress until I could demonstrate these skills (and I'm thankful for that).

Rushing into technical dive training doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
... surely pushing limits deeper (to 40 or 45 meters through a PADI or TDI class) isn't the right answer for a beginner diver with 50 dives.

Doing training doesn't mandate the graduated diver with an obligation to conduct dives to the very limits of that certification.

In fact, the certification represents the absolute extent of the student's capacity.... and no diver is ever recommended to dive at their absolute limit.

The message has always been to dive conservatively within ones personal and training limits.

Let's STOP this warped mindset regards training and education.

A c-card isn't a license, it's merely a proof of training.

You undertake training to increase skills and knowledge.... not for a pathetic card that somehow 'entitles' (or obligates??) you to dive to X, Y or Z depth?

There's plenty of value for recreational divers doing technical level training.... and NONE of it demands them to ever dive deeper or longer.

PADI Deep Diver versus the Tec40 Course: A Comparison
 
In fact, the certification represents the absolute extent of the student's capacity.... and no diver is ever recommended to dive at their absolute limit.

The message has always been to dive conservatively within ones personal and training limits.
I agree with you there, but I also feel a certification card should give divers the training and knowledge they need to work to their max certified limits. That might be a gradual progression after the class. When you're hitting absolute limits, it's probably time to look to more training.

There's plenty of value for recreational divers doing technical level training.... and NONE of it demands them to ever dive deeper or longer.
However, from reading the description, the class dive does put a 10 minute ceiling above your head, breathing 50% O2. Is this truly appropriate for a beginner diver with 50 dives, a good percentage of them within the span of a 5 day trip, and zero experience with doubles? Is 4 dives (2 days?) really enough to learn the skills necessary to execute this sort of dive safely?

It still feels like too much too soon to me.
 
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I don't really want to drag the thread off on an irrelevant tangent. I wrote an article a few years ago that gave a comparison between Tec40 and the Deep Diver course. That article will give you some other perspectives on the potential value of entry-level tech training for the recreational diver...

PADI Deep Diver versus the Tec40 Course: A Comparison
 
It is a cliché on ScubaBoard that the number of dives means very little. The paradox is that people who say that ill then treat cn advanced class as if there is no instruction going on in the course--the instructor just reads the number of dives in the logbook and hands out a card. When taking a class, a student learns skills, and the certification does not arrive until those skills are met.
 

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